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Subject: Current M60 that can spit out 10 000 rds non stop
Rasputin    5/12/2007 12:27:32 PM
I am quite puzzled by the development of this super M60. Just when one would think there are quite a number of fundemental flaws in the M60, they are able to make it perform as though it had a water cooled or radiator attached to the barrel and shoot out 10k or rounds. My question is, why are doing it only now? Just when the armed forces have gone to the FN MAG or GPMG en mass for armour as well as infantry, even some aircraft, then SACO finally decides to make the improvement after they.... got replaced. And that is after their M60E3 got rejected. Mighty inconvinient timing???? Besides the helicopters, who else gets these super M60s?
 
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YelliChink       5/14/2007 2:25:54 PM
Helicopters get FN M3M machineguns and Miniguns. Infantry units get M240s, and tanks use M240s, too. There is only a small market for specialized M60E3/E4s. There are some cases where M60's ergonomic design is favored, but, generally, M240 is way better.
 
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flamingknives       5/14/2007 5:15:46 PM
How much does a super-M60 cost?
 
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YelliChink       5/14/2007 5:48:26 PM
 
8 grands for civilian version (semi auto only, close bolt). I don't know how much it costs to LEOs or militaries.
 
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Horsesoldier       5/14/2007 6:46:47 PM

Helicopters get FN M3M machineguns and Miniguns. Infantry units get M240s, and tanks use M240s, too. There is only a small market for specialized M60E3/E4s. There are some cases where M60's ergonomic design is favored, but, generally, M240 is way better.



There are still a lot of M60D helicopter door guns in the system, but I don't believe any of them are this supposedly improved version from SACO.
 
I have to echo the initial post -- they had 30-40 years to fix the fundamental flaws in the M60, and did not seem real interested in doing so.  Day late and dollar short at this point.  I like the M60 for use in the assault, where your MG team is possibly going to be firing from the move (which is poor use of an MG, but things don't always happen in an optimal way), but otherwise the MAG/M240 is superior and probably what we should have adopted (along with the FAL) a couple generations ago.
 
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YelliChink       5/14/2007 7:23:35 PM




Helicopters get FN M3M machineguns and Miniguns. Infantry units get M240s, and tanks use M240s, too. There is only a small market for specialized M60E3/E4s. There are some cases where M60's ergonomic design is favored, but, generally, M240 is way better.





There are still a lot of M60D helicopter door guns in the system, but I don't believe any of them are this supposedly improved version from SACO.

 

I have to echo the initial post -- they had 30-40 years to fix the fundamental flaws in the M60, and did not seem real interested in doing so.  Day late and dollar short at this point.  I like the M60 for use in the assault, where your MG team is possibly going to be firing from the move (which is poor use of an MG, but things don't always happen in an optimal way), but otherwise the MAG/M240 is superior and probably what we should have adopted (along with the FAL) a couple generations ago.


Please feed us with your ideas about PKM and MG3, and AAT-52.
 
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Horsesoldier       5/14/2007 8:25:29 PM


Please feed us with your ideas about PKM and MG3, and AAT-52.

I like the PKM.  Relatively lightweight (compared to alternatives and other weapons in the class), and the examples I've shot ran well.  Like the M60, it would be good for if a machinegunner has to be up on his feet, shooting and moving a lot, I'd think.
As for the MG3, I'm quite happy I never was called on to carry one (or its MG42 ancestor) slung over my shoulder across Russia.  It's not much heavier than the MAG, but that extra kilogram or two definitely catches your attention.  Reliable and solid in my limited experience beyond that.  In a toss up with the MAG, I'd take the MAG, but that may be partly because it is what I'm used to -- don't think it would really matter having one or the other, say, mounted on a vehicle.
 
Don't have any first hand experience with the AAT-52.  Their reputation (I am not sure how justified it is) for needing to have belts of ammo oiled to feed reliably does not maker me enthusiastic, however.

 
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Yimmy       5/14/2007 9:11:50 PM
I don't know why the British army adopted the FN MAG in the 50's.  Through tests comparing the MG42 with the Bren Gun during the war years, we had already decided the German weapon was far superior.  At the end of the war we should have just collected up as many of the German weapons as possible, and pressed them into service, while we reverse-engineered our own version (ie the MG3).
 
 
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cato3    Horsesoldier   5/14/2007 9:23:16 PM
Have you encountered the Mk. 48 in your lil' corner of the Army? It looks light and handy, but must roar like a dragon.
Thanks,
Cato
 
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Rasputin       5/16/2007 4:52:20 AM
Yes for WW2, I do not know how the british soldiers must have felt having to tote along a Vickers along when facing germans with MG42s. I guess the Bren does help abit. Did the British field the browning M1919 for their infantry?

I have heard of the United States being so hard up and hard pressed to field an MG as good as the MG 42, that aberdeen or lake city aresenal tried to reverse engineer an outright copy of the MG42 into .3006 but due to some metric conversion mistake of some sort, the copied examples failed terribly and that was that. Till it came alive again in the M60, but with a FN MAG feed tray.

As for the M60 E3 that the marines fielded, I can't remember the reason why the US army replaced it, perhaps there was too much modification to make an original M60 into an M60 E3. Come to think of it the timing is always wrong for the American 7.62mm machine gun. Some have stated that the M60 replacement to the FN240 came 20 years too late.

Now it seems like SACO is 30 or 40 years late in developing the super M60.

 
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Rasputin       5/16/2007 4:55:01 AM
Yelli, which of these 7.62mm dragons does the Taiwan infantry field? M60s or FN MAG?

If for the FN MAG please state whether it is the current FN240 or the vintage FN MAGS or even Brit GPMGs?


 
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