I freaking cringed when I re-read my post and saw how bad my grammar was. My bad.

What kind of 'home defense' scenario can you envisage using more than 8 rounds, much less more than 14?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking if it's enough. Most people I've talked to prefer high capacity weapons, like 30 round AR-15's (which we own), for homedefense. We live in a great area with virtually no crime, but I can't justify buying a gun that would have a sole purpose of target practice and no personal defense attributes. To play up this scenario though, let's say 3-4 guys come to break into your house with murder on their minds...8 rounds may not be enough (obviously, an extremely wild scenario...and in that case the odds of survival are extremely low anyway, but that's the only scenario I can think of).

I understand this gun isn't optimal for home defense type of scenarios, but that isn't it's primary focus at all. I mainly want to take it to the range and shoot at different targets/distances and become profecient with it, along with eventually modifying it (I'm weird, I love working on things and improving them my way)... but since almost every round will have almost no noticeable recoil (since it's a pistol caliber carbine), I would like to get the best round for personal/home defense.

I dont know what to tell you about home defense (ove got an M92 beretta and ive got no complaints about it) but I can inform you that there is no problem with M92/M9 beretta magazines that are actually made by beretta.  the military has had problems with their magazines because they decided to save money (which always comes back to bite ya in the butt) by having the magazines built by some other company (a small european company I think).  the primary problem lies in the quality of the magazine springs, which for ORM Beretta made magazines means 15,000+ rounds before needing replacement, while the cheap mags that the military bought have defective springs that often fail after about 4,000 rounds.

And wouldn't a shotgun be vastly superior?

The idea of home defense fascinates me. When was the last time that 3-4 strangers visited someone's house 'with murder in mind' ever? In the CONUS and not including military and law enforcement operations.

I think you are getting the wrong idea here. The scenario was ridiculous, but you asked for a scenario where more than 8 rounds is needed. I don't ever, ever think I'll have to use any gun in a homedefense capacity outside of the military or LE, I'm just saying that the gun would probably serve in that type of capacity (ie: keep it somewhere close at night in case and only in case someone breaks in). I love to shoot guns, especially anything that is of the tactical variety (I love our AR-15 and FAL), and 99% of the time those guns will only be used at the range, but if someone breaks in and resists, then those guns could be used in a home defense scenario (and this is extremely unlikely and hopefully will never ever happen). So let's not get sidetracked on this issue...I was curious what round would be best for personal/home defense, but by far the primary purpose of the gun is target practice.

 

The gun will also be used to modify. I love to make my stuff top of the line (whether it be adding upgrades to the engine in my gas powered car I had as a boy, and other things). I also love to tinker with things like that, as I like to think of myself as sort of a handy man : ) (example: while on vacation at our beach house in Florida, I noticed my cheap raft had a huge slash in it. Needless to say, I fixed it using Seal-all, Gorilla duct tape, and PVC cement glue over the duct tape to hold it down...I think I spent more on the stuff to fix the slash than the entire raft was worth lol, but I enjoyed fixing it) .

I've always liked the Old West style set up of a carbine lever gun and revolver both shooting the same ammunition, so, like you, I think the Cx4 is a pretty neat idea.

 

For a plinker I'd say it's all good.  Pistol ammunition tends to be cheaper than long gun ammo, assuming the same basic source/quality level (i.e. mil-surp long gun ammo might be cheaper than new pistol ammo, but it's apples and oranges), and pistol caliber carbines tend to be fun to shoot in quantity -- minimal recoil, etc.  They're also good, due to the fun and low recoil angles, for new shooters to learn on, especially those who might be recoil phobic.

 

Downsides to the general idea, on the defensive side of things, is that the carbine length barrel does give you a little extra thump, as far as terminal ballistics, but you're still talking about a pistol bullet when it's all said and done.  A lot of people would prefer a shotgun or something like a 5.56mm carbine, which can be had in formats that are not a whole lot bigger than the Cx4.

 

But on the other hand, I'm not much inclined to catch a 9mm, 40S&W, or 45 ACP round in the chest to demonstrate the statistical inferiority to bigger and more energetic rounds.

 

Bear in mind that the Cx4 is marketed set up to take magazines from three seperate Beretta pistols (I think you can buy inserts you can install yourself to change from one to the other), so if you are thinking about getting a Model 92 in 9mm or a Model 96 in 40S&W, I'd say save yourself minor headaches and make sure the Cx4 is not set up for Px4 or Beretta 8000 (? I think that's the other pistol it can share mags with).  (Or check out the Px4 and see which suits you better on the handgun side before buying a Cx4.)  Note also that I think the 45 ACP caliber Cx4s only work with the 45 cal Px4 pistols, you get more choices with the 9x19 and 40S&W.

GOP, I wouldnt worry about sights where self defence is the issue.  Just get what is best for target shooting.

 

If you are going to convince a jury you had to shoot someone in self defence, in a "them or you", scenario, they are going to be close enough to simply aim down the top like a shotgun.  Even with the L85 and SUSAT, there is no need to actually use the sight in room clearing.

 

That's a really good point. I really like regular iron sites (which may be weird to some of you), but I'd probably shoot the gun out to 50-75 meters, with maybe a rare 100 meter group every now and then (I can't see me going any farther out than that). I need with very little to no zoom that will help me aquire the target quicker (like an Aimpoint or Eotech), because if no one is at the range (and usually they aren't, as the range is at a national park in the middle of nowhere), I usually play 'games'. Some 'games' I like are to set up 3 targets at different ranges, try put 2 center mass and 1 head shot on each as fast as possible). Another fun one is to set up a bunch of targets at different locations, and shoot/change mags while walking (hard to explain the exact technique, I read about this little drill in "The Warrior Elite", it's an exercise/drill they teach you in 3rd phase at BUD/S...but I certainly don't claim to do it well or even correctly). I also shoot 3 or 5 shot groups at different locations. What scope do you like for those scenario's (I figured you'd know as well as anyone since you are an infantrymen)

Yeah, in a CQB type of situation (certainly not implying that I'm trained in CQB at all), I think the stopping power of those rounds is plenty, and obviously accuracy is the name of the game. I'm leaning on getting the 40 S&W round, because I think it's a great combination of low recoil (for plinking) and power (for home defense). What round do you prefer? Never shot a .40 or .45, so a little unsure of those rounds. Any modifications you'd make? I would probably add a EOTECH 522 (takes AA batteries I believe), because if it didn't work I could still use the iron sights. I would also consider a flashlight and foregrip, but I wouldn't want to make it super complicated either.

I'm personally a fan of 9mm and 45 ACP, but 40S&W is a solid performer with a lot of fans out there among skilled and knowledgeable shooters.  Any of the three is a good choice for defense, for plinking 9mm is the cheapest of the three for your basic FMJ kind of range ammo.  With 9mm (the only one of the three I've shot) you've pretty much got a 50 or 75 meter kind of gun, I think (was shooting it on a 25m range, so may be underrating it), I'd imagine the other two perform similarly.

The only major issue I'd see with the Cx4 for real CQB work is that it has a cross-bolt kind of safety (i.e shotgun sort of style) that does not seem to lend itself well to AR-based sort of combat marksmanship drills (i.e. weapon on safe until you're ready to shoot, then back on safe).  It may be something that can be worked around with practice, though, I haven't played around with one enough to see if there is some modification to basic methods which accomodates that different safety.

 

The set up you mentioned -- EOTech, foregrip, and light is pretty much everything you need for civilian world limited visibility shooting.  The EOTech model you probably want is the 512 (AA battery model) -- doesn't have the night vision compatible settings, but unless you've got NVGs why pay extra $$$ for something you're not going to use?  For mounting a vertical forward grip and light there's a $70 or so rail adaptor that is probably something you'd want to invest in as well.  The Cx4 has a retractable piece of rail that can extend forward of the stock, but I think it's too flimsy for really vigorous range drills or real world CQB use.  Probably good for a light, but you'd probably want that on the side, which the rail adaptor allows for too.

 

The 9mm that I used was pretty solid, very low recoil and very accurate  (certainly not trying to make this gun into something it ain't though), so I may go with that. And like you say the 9mm rounds are very well priced (I'd probably use Remington or PMC for plinking, probably Federal Hydroshok for personal defense). Yeah, I'm also used to the AR type of saftey, and I definitely think it's superior for CQB (just so much quicker and easier to use I believe).

Yeah, I haven't done any real research into the scope, foregrip, or light, but I have always heard great things about EOTech and surefire (they have a foregrip/light combo, but it's $620). Surefire claims their MU series of light is in use with US Army SF, but I know how those companies operate, that could simply mean that a Surefire rep called a SF armorer and said "Hey bro, I'm going to drop off some lights for the guys to use, I know they'll love 'em"...then they can make the whole "Super ninja bad-a$$ SOF operator approved" (Luminox did this exact thing to the SEAL Teams, and I talked to some of the SEALs who got the free stuff and they said their watches were crap and the faces would break very easily, but I picked up a gun mag the other day and read their ad say "Official watch of US Navy SEALs"). Sorry, got a little side tracked, lol.  I can't really afford any of this yet (I'm still a few hundred $ short on the gun), so the accessories would have to wait for a while, lol.

On a sidenote, I have read of people who have basically a home defense kit, so I thought of buying a 5.11 vest and load it with 1-2 extra mags, pepper spray, a large knife (I'm a big fan of Gerber, I carry one of their spring assisted tactical folders...so probably their Silver Trident), and zip ties (for use as handcuffs). Probably overkill and useless (hopefully useless...but better to be prepared than unprepared), but I love this kind of stuff (in a completely safe and non-threatening way, I feel a need to express that every time...just too many crazies who give guys like me who have a healthy liking of weapons a bad name), so I'll probably end up buying that too.

I've shot the 9mm version and I like it. Fun gun.

Check Six

 

Rocky

In this case, Surefire's claim is legitimate.  There's always a dimension of operator-choice with those sorts of things, but a lot of real DoD money has been spent on Surefire products for SOF units, including SF.

That said, I wouldn't bother spending hundreds of dollars on a Surefire gun light (unless that amount of money really doesn't make an impression on you).  You can get one of the polymer bodied Surefires (G2 model if I'm remembering correctly) for about $30 and then either get a relatively inexpensive product-designed mount (Viking Tactical has a plastic one for about $30 for instance) or even just mount it with a pair of $10 Leupold scope rings from Walmart and you've got a good enough light for checking on things that go bump in the night and getting familiar with using a weapon light.  You can always spend the mega-money on a top end Surefire gun light later, if desired, but the Cx4 plus EOTech will already be costing you around $1000, combined, so I don't know if you want to add another $5-600 on top of that right out of the gate.

 

As for the kit, I'd try to avoid the impression you're sitting at home in a vaguely paramilitary outfit waiting for things to go bad, just because it could make a poor impression on a jury.  I'd definitely avoid the large knife, both for appearances sake and because you haven't been trained to use it.  A quality pocket knife or leatherman will do what you need it to do without giving a prosecuting DA an exciting exhibit to shock a jury with.  Also, throw a cell phone into the rig as well, as has been discussed elsewhere, so you can call 911 from anywhere in the house, etc., both before and after a hypothetical shooting.  In Alabama, you tend to have a pretty positive atmosphere concerning justifiable self-defense (at least that's my recollection from when I lived there), but there are always those exceptions to any rule, in terms of DAs and anything/anyone else.