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Subject: .357 Magnum stopping power
GOP    3/12/2007 10:24:42 PM
Whatsup guys? What kind of Self defense round is the .357 mag? Some of you may know that I'm 17, but I'm a gun nut, and love the S&W 686 with 4 inch barrel in .357 mag/.38 special. I'd use the gun almost completely for shooting at the range, but when I turn 21 I plan on getting my CCW license/pistol permit so it would then be used legally as a self-defense weapon. Just curious what your thoughts on the round is. The reason I like it is because it's stainless steal, and therefore won't rust (we own a fishing boat and it may be used by my Dad on the boat as a Self-Defense weapon). It's also highly, highly thought of in the NSW community (most SEALs don't like the the Sig P226 Navy, because they basically rust at the sound of "salt water")
 
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BasinBictory       5/9/2007 7:32:50 AM
Ah - the old standby of "How often does a 6-foot, 200-pound Viking break down your door?" Well, in my neck of the woods, it would more likely be an Aztec, or Zulu warrior, maybe the odd Mongol Horde....but I digress.
 
Well - my guess is that it happens quite a bit more often than some crazed maniac shooting up his school or place of work. Home invasions, where I live, happen often enough to make me nervous.
 
How often do you get into a car wreck in your lifetime? What? You've never been in a car wreck? So - I guess you don't need your car or life insurance, then, eh?
 
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BasinBictory       5/9/2007 7:44:21 AM
andyf,
 
Asserting that "it doesn't happen" is simply wishful thinking. Perhaps in your area it doesn't, but it does in mine. And yes, I know all about "layers of defense." I have two large dogs, I have good relations with my neighbors, all approaches to my home's entrances are well lighted at night, and I live in a relatively quiet area. I hope to God I never, ever, ever have to use my gun in self-defense, but as the last resort, I believe I should have the ability to defend myself and my family.
 
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Horsesoldier       5/9/2007 12:01:52 PM
Exactly how often does a 6ft, 200lb viking burst into your house? Or anyone's house, for that matter?
 
As I think I've possibly stated earlier in this thread (seems like this one was dead for a while before rising from the grave), the way I see it is simply this: 
 
The odds of me ever having to use deadly force in self-defense or to justifiably defend others is quite remote.  However, the odds of a helpful policeman standing next to me if/when that occasion rolls around is a couple orders of magnitude even less likely. 
 
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Ehran       5/9/2007 1:34:30 PM


However, the real numbers do not bear this out.  Accidental handgun deaths in this country occur at a miniscule rate each year -- more people die in house fires, and many more die in automobile accidents.  You are actually more likely to die in the United States from falling off your bed or other furniture than from a firearms accident (838 deaths from furniture related falls, 703 from firearms accidents in the year 2003).
 
it's not just the accidental shootings that should be counted towards this horsesoldier.  how many disputes wind up with someone getting shot because a firearm was handy and in the heat of the moment it got used?  i've also seen a report from a major metro pd that showed that homeowners with firearms confronting criminals were well over twice as likely to wind up getting shot with their own firearm than the criminal. 
 

 

Likewise, domestic disputes ending in murder are rather less common that your claim would suggest, and in a certain percentage of those cases, where the relationship is abusive, justifiable self-defense may be involved in any case.
 
granted there are some prime sob's out there but spousal murder amounts to a lot of people a year.  between 1976 and 2004 30% of all women killed were killed by spouses or boyfriends and two thirds of those were killed with firearms.  in the same time period 80% of workplace killings were firearm related. 

 

Against those minute (albeit tragic) cases where a handgun is used accidentally or in a crime of passion, you have estimates of anywhere upwards of 1.5 million uses of firearms for personal defense by law abiding citizens each year. 
 
it's always interesting to try finding a reason why americans seem so much more willing to tolerate personal violence than canadians for instance.  i doubt i know a single canadian who would consider arming the populace the way you do an idea with enough merit to be worth discussing.
 

So, 1.5 million actual violent crimes halted, plus however many crimes halted by a general atmosphere that is more hostile towards criminals than those parts of this country and other countries where victim disarmarment is the law of the land, versus a miniscule number of accidental deaths, etc.  Personally, I can accept that trade off -- in a perfect world there'd be no crime, no need for firearms or police or soliders, etc., but since there is not, I would say the good of millions outweighs the negligence of the few.

and yet the for all the goodness that being heavily armed brings the us murder rate per capita is what 4x the canadian rate?

 
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flamingknives       5/9/2007 1:34:53 PM
Never been in a car wreck, though I've heard of plenty and have known people who have been involved.

Never been subjected to a home invasion, and I've heard of only a very few and have never met anyone who knew anyone else who had it happen.

If it's more common where you live, then perhaps you have reason. But I would suggest that a few trips down the range per year would be adviseable. And that's the distiction. It isn't a comparison between "you can have a gun for self defence" and "you cannot have a gun ever if you intend to use it for self-defence". It's "If you want a gun you have to be a member of a shooting club that you attend on a regular basis" The membership application and probationary period enables the authorities to check your background and the regular attendance means people can keep an eye on how you behave with guns.

I happen to think that's a good idea, although the application is frequently flawed.
 
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Ehran       5/9/2007 1:48:08 PM
You could, but you would have to re-use your "cases of domestic dispute gone bad," your "cases of kids playing with pop's favorite home defense gun" over and over again because there isn't anywhere close to a 1:1 correspondence. The statistics do no support your assertion. Not even close.
 
i was suggesting to rocky that posting anecdotes in this kind of a discussion isn't helpful.
though i would suggest that in the criminals vs upstanding citizens duel the criminals are well ahead on total kills.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    THE RECORD SHOWS   5/9/2007 2:07:14 PM
 
Once again this side of the argument responds with facts and you respond with pithy anecdotes. The jury is in and your ideas are failed. Another case of liberalism feeling its way through a debate.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Ehran       5/9/2007 3:51:40 PM
the fraser institute can do some good work but you always have to be aware of their tilt off to the right when you consider their output.
 
 
 
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Ehran       5/9/2007 4:02:42 PM

 

Once again this side of the argument responds with facts and you respond with pithy anecdotes. The jury is in and your ideas are failed. Another case of liberalism feeling its way through a debate.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

and who exactly was it again that resorted to anecdotal "evidence" to prop up his argument with a pretty blatant appeal to emotion rather than reason? 
 
your word for the day is "Hypocrite".
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Name Calling! Thats What You Had Not done Yet! No facts, but head straight into the name calling! Funny stuff Ehran   5/9/2007 7:25:20 PM




 



Once again this side of the argument responds with facts and you respond with pithy anecdotes. The jury is in and your ideas are failed. Another case of liberalism feeling its way through a debate.



 



Check Six



 



Rocky



and who exactly was it again that resorted to anecdotal "evidence" to prop up his argument with a pretty blatant appeal to emotion rather than reason? 

 

your word for the day is "Hypocrite".



 
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