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Subject: Next generation grenades
HYPOCENTER    1/11/2007 6:16:13 PM
The hand grenade is an important tool for the infantryman. Especially in a city or urban environment where spaces are tight--throwing one into a room will most likely clear it... or at least take the fight out of those within it. How will this old weapon will be modernized? I'm referring of course, to only lethal grenades and not riot control type of the non-lethal variety. I'd like to see thermobaric grenades. And anyone who knows the destructive power of thermobaric-based weapons knows why. They're ultra destructive.
 
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Professor Fickle       1/13/2007 6:07:41 PM
 some US troops in Iraq have made some homemade >themobolic grenades.
Look around strategypage you will find a list FAE (fuel air explosive) devices.
 
as for use
1 pull the pin
2 throw the grenade
3 (since FAE kill or wound threw blast AND violent air pressure change) RUN BACK for cover.
 
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flamingknives       1/13/2007 6:38:54 PM
Electronic ignition and fuses, user modified fuses, 'bouncing' grenades (i.e. jump up and airburst), improved fragmentation, more precisely defined area of effect, tunable effect and maybe some kind of intelligence (proximity device preventing fratricide, that sort of thing)
 
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Professor Fickle    American Troops Build Their Own Bombs    1/13/2007 7:27:08 PM
American Troops Build Their Own Bombs
  >
 
by James Dunnigan
May 1, 2005Discussion Board on this DLS topic

While the U.S. Army and Marine Corps provide their troops with a large number of explosive devices to use in combat, this does not stop the grunts from inventing more of their own. Iraq has seen the development and use of the;

Eight Ball -Take one-eighth stick of C-4 plastic explosive, add a detonator. Use it to gain rapid access to what's behind locked doors. This explosive device is sufficient to knock down most doors, but weak enough that troops can be close, and there won’t be a lot of additional damage.

House Guest (one of many names)- A full tank of propane, with some C-4 plastic explosive attached to detonate it, will bring down most Iraqi houses when placed in the central hallway. The propane acts like a fuel-air explosive. This explosive was used when you had a house full of hostiles who would not surrender, and there was no artillery or smart bombs available to do the deed. Actually preferable to artillery or smart bombs, because there is less damage to nearby structures.

Super Incendiary – Take one 60mm or 81mm white phosphorous mortar shell, wrapped three times with detonation cord and attach a quarter or half a stick of C-4 explosive. Set this off inside a building full of stubborn enemy troops, and the building will quickly burn down. Gives enemy troops an opportunity to come out and surrender. 

Modern Molotov Cocktail- Fill a container with one part liquid laundry detergent and two parts gasoline (or similar fuel). Instant napalm and excellent for burning stubborn enemy out of their hiding places. 

Troops have also improvised other explosive concoctions using left over Iraqi munitions, a practice that was very common during last November’s battle for Fallujah.
=-=-

brings new meaning to the “room is on fire” as the old rock song used to say

 
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Professor Fickle    American Troops Build Their Own Bombs    1/13/2007 7:27:15 PM
American Troops Build Their Own Bombs
  >
 
by James Dunnigan
May 1, 2005Discussion Board on this DLS topic

While the U.S. Army and Marine Corps provide their troops with a large number of explosive devices to use in combat, this does not stop the grunts from inventing more of their own. Iraq has seen the development and use of the;

Eight Ball -Take one-eighth stick of C-4 plastic explosive, add a detonator. Use it to gain rapid access to what's behind locked doors. This explosive device is sufficient to knock down most doors, but weak enough that troops can be close, and there won’t be a lot of additional damage.

House Guest (one of many names)- A full tank of propane, with some C-4 plastic explosive attached to detonate it, will bring down most Iraqi houses when placed in the central hallway. The propane acts like a fuel-air explosive. This explosive was used when you had a house full of hostiles who would not surrender, and there was no artillery or smart bombs available to do the deed. Actually preferable to artillery or smart bombs, because there is less damage to nearby structures.

Super Incendiary – Take one 60mm or 81mm white phosphorous mortar shell, wrapped three times with detonation cord and attach a quarter or half a stick of C-4 explosive. Set this off inside a building full of stubborn enemy troops, and the building will quickly burn down. Gives enemy troops an opportunity to come out and surrender. 

Modern Molotov Cocktail- Fill a container with one part liquid laundry detergent and two parts gasoline (or similar fuel). Instant napalm and excellent for burning stubborn enemy out of their hiding places. 

Troops have also improvised other explosive concoctions using left over Iraqi munitions, a practice that was very common during last November’s battle for Fallujah.
=-=-

brings new meaning to the “room is on fire” as the old rock song used to say

 
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Jeff_F_F       1/13/2007 10:58:38 PM
 Thermobaric hand grenades could be really useful for attacking tunnels and hardened bunkers - basically a more powerful version of a conventional concussion grenade which are fairly large HE charges with a light, non-fragmentating casing. For a thermobaric version of a conventional grenade I'd think you would want a thermobaric weapon which was propelled in some fashion due to heavy blast effect, on the other hand, if troops are sticking C4 to propane bottles, maybe I'm wrong.
 
On the other hand, you could use a very small thermobaric grenade, thus giving a strong concussion-enough to knock out the occupants of a room without necessarily bringing the entire house down-in a light package that could be thrown further, and allowing more grenades to be carried.
 
Something I've been thinking about is not so much a grenade improvement but a grenade accessory. If you've seen those atlatl like ball throwers that people use to toss balls for their dogs further, you'll know what I mean. For a conventional fragmentation grenade, I'd think you would want to modify the atlatl a bit so that it holds the grenade with the arming pin on the inside of the cup. You'd put the grenade in the cup, hold it there while pulling the pin, and then throw. The problems would be training issues - making sure you had a clear arc to throw the grenade so nothing caused it to be knocked out of the atlatl.
 
Another idea I've thought of would be an aerobie design - a flying ring. If you've thrown one you'll know what I'm talking about. The body would be mostly plastic, with a ring of explosive surrounded by coils of serrated wire of the sort used in conventional fragmentation grenades. You would want an impact fuse mechanism, probably one which arms shortly after the grenade is thrown and is sensitive enough to detonate the grenade if someone tries to catch it. The range probably would be considerably less than an actual aerobie because the weight would be greater, but still probably pretty good, considering the range and accuracy of a thrown aerobie. Troops could be issued heavy aerobies of the same size and weight and throw them for recreation to improve their proficiency.
 
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flamingknives       1/14/2007 4:53:55 AM
If overpressure is sufficient to injure a person, then that house is coming down.

Check out this web page

Scroll down to "5.6.2 Blast damage and Injury"
 
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reefdiver       1/15/2007 11:13:58 PM
How about "thermal sensing" grenades. Would not explode until it sensed body heat signatures within range. Could have an adjustable delay until self-destruct. Perhaps there could be a small robotic version that would roll itself around a bit seeking thermal targets. Regardless, there's no picking this one up and throwing it back. Of course you'd want it to only be triggered after is pin is pulled and it also senses it has hit the ground. 
 
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andyf    cluster grenade   1/20/2007 5:08:42 AM
an idea:
thin frangible case, standard fusing arangement, charge of black powder say,maybe a teaspoonfull.
surrounding the BP charge are segments cast of nipolite with a pyrotechnic fuse delay of maybe 1/2 sec.
the nipolite should have 2mm frag bb cast into its surfaces.
if such a grnade was to explode the nipolite segments would be thrown outwards and then detonate,
the area full of high speed frags would be huge. things like grenade traps wouldnt help at all,
what thing you?
 
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Horsesoldier       1/20/2007 3:55:53 PM
The key in most urban combat is being able to tailor lethality to reflect the political realities.  Fragging rooms full of indigenous women and children accidentally has very negative results on both the world stage as well as the local hearts and minds stuff.  Most fights are not Stalingrad, or even Fallujah, and most urban battlefields have non-combatants stuck in the middle of them.
 
I'd think there's a niche for what some nations do already, I think -- take a basic (mostly) non-lethal concussion grenade and issue it with a seperate and attachable fragmentation sleeve.  Troops can therefore deploy lethal or non-lethal grenades at a moment's notice, as the situation requires.
 
As for thermobarics -- I think they're great for a launched weapon, or for a time-delay charge, but I'd definitely not be keen on one that was thrown, unless the thermobaric effects were almost completely toned down.  I'm not really enthusiastic for a grenade design that, if Joe fumbles it or it hits something and bounces back, etc., will bring down my building as readily as the target one, etc.
 
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longrifle       1/22/2007 11:49:43 PM
A modern rifle grenade would be usefull.  There are shoot through and bullet trap models out that do no require the old WWII blank cartridge setup.  They have variable charges too.   For what it's worth, the Israelis like them.

Why have one M203 in a fireteam when everyone but the M249 could be a grenadier as needed? 

It would also be handy if you could throw them like the old potato masher as well as shoot them.  This one item might be able to replace the M203, conventional grenades, and small rocket launchers like the LAW.

Mike Sparks devotes some space on his website to them.  I suspect that some people won't like them just because it's a Sparky endorsed idea.  Let's be bigger than that.  Evaluate the idea and let it stand alone on it's own merits.



 
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