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Subject: bullpup design fad or future?
HYPOCENTER    1/6/2007 2:38:56 PM
What advantages does a "Bullpup" constructional scheme have when comparing with traditional weapons? The "bullpup" constructional scheme seems to be very popular among new generation weapons. I'm not sure just how many country's are currently using it, or are planning on eventually using it.... but here are a few: (see post below with pictures)
 
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HYPOCENTER       1/6/2007 2:54:37 PM
AUG (Any military use this as their main assault rifle?)


French FAMAS


FN 20000 (any country use this as their official assault rifle?)


British L22



IMI MTAR



XM 25 (XM is latin for "bulky mess"... haha!)



So there you have it.... some bullpup designes current and future (I guess).

 
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HYPOCENTER       1/6/2007 3:15:41 PM
I forgot to add:

Khaybar KH2002 assault rifle (Iran)

QBZ-95 (Chinese)


 
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HYPOCENTER       1/6/2007 4:45:03 PM
As I have just shown, an important observation can be made here: It appears most nations of the world are either currently using, are in the process of-- or are planning on-- acquiring bullpup assault rifles.

That is to say, most country's not all; U.S. military certainly falls into the exception category. The U.S. military (and this is strictly my own observation, I could be wrong) continues to not take the bullpup design seriously. I point to the lack of interest in a bullpup design in the current rifle replacement that's happening. I wonder what the reasons are for this.

When one looks around the world.... are bullpup designs fad or future?

 
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bob the brit       1/6/2007 5:02:18 PM

As I have just shown, an important observation can be made here: It appears most nations of the world are either currently using, are in the process of-- or are planning on-- acquiring bullpup assault rifles.

That is to say, most country's not all; U.S. military certainly falls into the exception category. The U.S. military (and this is strictly my own observation, I could be wrong) continues to not take the bullpup design seriously. I point to the lack of interest in a bullpup design in the current rifle replacement that's happening. I wonder what the reasons are for this.

When one looks around the world.... are bullpup designs fad or future?


not sure about the FN 2000, but the steyr-mannlicher AUG is used by quite a few countries; Austria for one (seen as it was designed to their requirements), the Netherlands, Rep' of Ireland, Taiwan, Falkland islands defence force and several middle eastern armies. Also, the AUG is manufactured in Australia under licence as the F88.
 
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Herald1234    Britain's been there and did that, rather well.    1/6/2007 8:00:01 PM



As I have just shown, an important observation can be made here: It appears most nations of the world are either currently using, are in the process of-- or are planning on-- acquiring bullpup assault rifles.

That is to say, most country's not all; U.S. military certainly falls into the exception category. The U.S. military (and this is strictly my own observation, I could be wrong) continues to not take the bullpup design seriously. I point to the lack of interest in a bullpup design in the current rifle replacement that's happening. I wonder what the reasons are for this.

When one looks around the world.... are bullpup designs fad or future?



not sure about the FN 2000, but the steyr-mannlicher AUG is used by quite a few countries; Austria for one (seen as it was designed to their requirements), the Netherlands, Rep' of Ireland, Taiwan, Falkland islands defence force and several middle eastern armies. Also, the AUG is manufactured in Australia under licence as the F88.

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2.jpg


http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2."


http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2.jpg">



 
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Herald1234    Britain got it about right the firstm time she tried.    1/6/2007 8:23:35 PM



As I have just shown, an important observation can be made here: It appears most nations of the world are either currently using, are in the process of-- or are planning on-- acquiring bullpup assault rifles.

That is to say, most country's not all; U.S. military certainly falls into the exception category. The U.S. military (and this is strictly my own observation, I could be wrong) continues to not take the bullpup design seriously. I point to the lack of interest in a bullpup design in the current rifle replacement that's happening. I wonder what the reasons are for this.

When one looks around the world.... are bullpup designs fad or future?



not sure about the FN 2000, but the steyr-mannlicher AUG is used by quite a few countries; Austria for one (seen as it was designed to their requirements), the Netherlands, Rep' of Ireland, Taiwan, Falkland islands defence force and several middle eastern armies. Also, the AUG is manufactured in Australia under licence as the F88.


Enfield EM-2 / Rifle, Automatic, caliber .280, Number 9 Mark 1 (Great Britain)

http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2.jpg" width=743>
EM-2 assault rifle, officially adopted in Britain as Rifle, Automatic, No.9 Mk.1 but never put into service
Note that the backup sights are in raised position.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/em1.jpg" width=755>
EM-1 prototype assault rifle

http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2strip.jpg" width=685>
EM-2 disassembled into major components

http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2_280.jpg" width=195>
from let to right: British experimental .280 (7x43mm) cartridge for EM-2; Soviet 7.62x39mm M43; US/NATO 5.56x45mm (.223 Rem); US/NATO 7.62x51mm (.308 Win)

Caliber: 7x43 mm (.280 British)
Action: Gas operated
Overall length: 889 mm
Barrel length: 623 mm
Weight: 3.41 kg with empty magazine
Rate of fire: 450 - 600 rounds per minute (depends on source)
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds

The history of the British EM-2 (Experimental Model-2) assault rifle is interesting and somewhat pitiful story. The EM-2 was born as a result of the experience with small arms, gained during the Second World War. It was obvious that the modern warfare will require the infantry to be armed with light, selective fire weapon with effective range of fire much longer than of submachine gun, but shorter than of conventional semi-automatic or bolt action rifles. This requirement effectively led to the development of the various "intermediate" cartridges. The first power to adopt this concept was the Germany, which issued in limited numbers the selective-fire weapons with intermediate cartridge (7.92x33mm Kurz) since 1942. The Soviet Union was the second to this case, developing its own intermediate cartridge in 1943 and began issuing weapons for it on limited basis since 1944 and on large scale since 1949. The Great Britain also felt the need to replace both Sten submachine guns and SMLE No.4 bolt-action rifles with more modern equipment. The research and experience clearly showed that it is entirely possible to replace both of these weapons with single new weapon, with effective range of fire of no more than 1000 yards and with selective-fire capability. This weapon, of cause, required a new cartridge, which was developed after extensive research and development. This cartridge, an "ideal" from British point of view, was of .280 caliber (7mm) and had a bottlenecked case 43 mm long. The pointed bullet weighted 9.08 g (140 grains) and had muzzle velocity of about 745 m/s (2445 fps). The rough comparison of this round against other most common modern cartridges can be found in the table below. Basically, this cartridge offered significant advantage in effective range and penetration against not only 9x19mm Luger pistol cartridge, but also against 7.92x33mm Kurz German and 7.62x39mm Soviet intermediate cartridges, producing slightly more recoil, which was still significantly less than of .303 British rifle cartridge or latter 7.62x51mm NATO car

 
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Herald1234    Did I mention that I hate this BB format for the fifty first time?   1/6/2007 8:55:21 PM
Crap, I hate the buggy software SP uses.

Herald
 
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flamingknives       1/7/2007 9:54:49 AM
The major advantage of a bullpup is the reduction in length without compromising on barrel length. Hence the L85 has an overall length of less than an M4 with a barrel length greater than an M16.

Slovakia has recently adopted the F2000 as their infantry rifle and there were reports of the Saudi Arabian National Guard being interested in acquiring them.

BTW, that pic of the 'L22' is an old design. The modern British Carbine version of the L85 is based on the A2 version, so the charging handle looks different.
 
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BrittleSteel       1/7/2007 11:42:13 AM
things that make the bull-pup desirable are ergonomics, long barrel with an over all short weapon. This is provides high accuracy with high effectives in close quarters combat such as urban setting which are becoming increasingly common. My response is baed on my understanding of the Israeli Tavor.

The Tavor had already entered service in the IDF this past August 2006 and will slowly replace the M4. Other countries such as India and Georgia has purchased the Tavor.

 
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Herald1234    Ergonomics?   1/7/2007 2:53:20 PM

things that make the bull-pup desirable are ergonomics, long barrel with an over all short weapon. This is provides high accuracy with high effectives in close quarters combat such as urban setting which are becoming increasingly common. My response is baed on my understanding of the Israeli Tavor.

The Tavor had already entered service in the IDF this past August 2006 and will slowly replace the M4. Other countries such as India and Georgia has purchased the Tavor.

How does the change of magazine in a bullpup differ from a conventional layout rifle-especially from the prone and the sitting shooting positions? Do you have to fumble under the armpit to change out?

Herald
 
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