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Subject: Gun Fight Myths Dispelled
DarthAmerica    7/8/2006 1:30:46 PM
See Post I'm posting this because there is an overwhelming amount of misconceptions associated with gunfights. Read the thread above and post any comments or questions for futher discussion.
 
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Cato    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled...Darth   7/8/2006 5:28:07 PM
Got one for you, homey. We hear about the dangers of overpenetration, and the virtue of the projectile "depositing its energy" in the target. What is the primary problem with overpenetration? Collateral damage, in a LE enviornment? I'm no expert, but from my experience, having one hole in you is preferrable to two, in terms of survival. Tension pneumothorax (sucking chest wound) can occur from entry AND exit wounds, for example. What's the dilleo? Thanks, Cato
 
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longrifle    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled   7/8/2006 6:58:06 PM
It's true that cops have a low hit rate under pressure. For the most part soldiers do too, how many thousands of rounds were expended for every enemy KIA in Vietnam? Cops typically do very bad when they're in startle recovery or reactive mode. The hit rates are better in proactive mode. Many cops never see their front sight when they're shooting in startle recovery mode. The other side of that story is that many cops have reported seeing their front sights while shooting, if they had some advanced warning that they were about to be in a gunfight. This has happened even if they were very scared. Jim Cirillo, perhaps America's most experienced living police gunfighter, reported that he saw the front sight of his pistol in such sharp focus during his first gunfight that he noticed the little striations on the front sight of his S&W Model 10 as he felt it recoilling in his hand. Cirillo, though, had just burst out of a mop closet in a convienience store as it was being robbed. He reported that his heart was pounding, his legs felt like jelly, and that he remembered thinking "Who's shooting my pistol?," when he felt the recoil. He still got three hits on three robbers. When Cirillo retired from the NYPD he had been in 17 gunfights that resulted in 11 fatalities as a member of the now defunct, famous, infamous, NYPD Stakeout Squad.
 
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longrifle    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled   7/8/2006 7:30:33 PM
>>He still got three hits on three robbers.<< Correction, he actually did better than that. He got two hits each on three different robbers, two of which were partially hidden behind the clerk for the first two shots, and running for the door for the second two. The time was estimated to be three to four seconds total. One robber was DRT, the other two were picked up later seeking treatment at a hospital ER. The old round nose .38 slugs hadn't dropped them even though Cirillo had two good hits on each man. The incident inspired the "Cirillo Drill" at matches and academies. Ray Chapman is reportedly the only man who has duplcated it on paper successfully. Cirillo admits that he's never been able to duplicate the feat again during range drills. Anyway, bottom line is that Cirillo knew he was about to be in a gunfight before the shooting started. The NYPD Stakeout Squad had very good hit percentages compared to most cops, but few of their gunfights involved them being in startle recovery mode. Most of their gunfights resulted after they initiated an armed confrontation in businesses that were being robbed.
 
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smitty237    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled   7/8/2006 11:44:58 PM
Pretty good points, all. When it comes down to it, the most important factor in a gun fight isn't weapon caliber, type of round, or even the number of rounds placed on target. The most important factor is shot placement. I would rather face a poor shooter armed with a .44 Magnum than an excellent shot armed with a .22LR. Unfortunately, under stress conditions it is very difficult to place good hits on a target, especially on one that is moving and trying to avoid being shot. Several years ago I was forced to shoot a rather large dog that was charging me. Out of four shots fired at the charging dog, I am certain that I struck it no less than three times, and I may have hit it with all four shots. The dog folded in the air, but its momentum carried it forward and it landed on the sidewalk beside me. The dog was still alive, and it wailed and howled until I killed it with a single shot to the head with my Glock .40 caliber. True, I could have ended the attack with a single well-placed head shot, but I challenge any of you to make such a shot under those circumstances. Even a head shot doesn't necessarily guarantee that the target will be stopped. Absent a well placed, "bingo" shot, the only substitute is several shots on a threat. If you can't kill the bad guy, then at least you should try to stop him. In recent years cops have been instructed to aim for the pelvis in certain circumstances. Such a hit to the "pelvic girdle" won't kill the bad guy, but it will drop him like a rock, and he will be unable to walk. The crook isn't out of the fight, but he is now immobile. He will either give up, be outmaneuvered, or bleed out. The mythical "shot between the eyes" will always end a gunfight, but such shots are extremely rare in the real world, and to train for them is unrealistic. You need to hit the bad guy in order to stand a chance of ending the gunfight.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled   7/9/2006 8:50:47 AM
>>The incident inspired the "Cirillo Drill" at matches and academies. Ray Chapman is reportedly the only man who has duplcated it on paper successfully. Cirillo admits that he's never been able to duplicate the feat again during range drills.<< Is the drill controlled pairs on three targets? How is it different from an El Presidente or Vice Presidente?
 
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longrifle    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled   7/9/2006 9:44:21 AM
Some of the "Cirillo Drills" featured in matches are modified from the way the gunfight that inspired them went down. Here's one example. http://www.cottonfamily.com/psc-idpa/images/IDPA%20Scenarios/Scenario_79.htm In the original gunfight Cirillo shot T3 twice first, after T3 shot at him. T3 dropped, eventually DRT. He then shot T1&T2 once each while they were hiding behind the clerk (X). T1&T2 ran for the door wounded and Cirillo shot them each again once. That part is accurate. The total time was estimated at 3 to four seconds. That part is questionable. Cirillo said everything seemed to be happening in slow motion, the time figure comes from the clerk's estimation. Obviously she could be off by several seconds at least, given that she had just experienced a traumatic event. Cirillo himself said that he had never duplicated the original event, in the reported time, during range drills on paper targets.
 
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DarthAmerica    Overpenetration and Energy Transfer...CATO   7/9/2006 11:41:07 AM
CATO, Simply put, "OVERPENETRATION" , from handguns is a myth. Its true that Handguns are quite capable of completely penetrating a human target BUT. After doing so the rounds lose so much energy that they pose little risk to bystanders. The skin is actually a very tough material and equivilent to 4 inches of muscle tissue on the exit side of a gunshot wound. In fact there are very few if any documented cases of a fatality resulting from a handgun round penetration of a human suspect/target. Statistically insignificant. Of course I'm refering to modern military/LE/Self Defensive Ammo. Ironically, whats more dangerous is UNDERPENETRATION from handgun ammo. Major blood vessels, vital organs and the spine are actually burried quite deeply inside the human body and failure of handgun ammunition to destroy these internals will not end a fight. What you want is a handgun round that will penetrate "at least" 12.5 inches and ideally ~18 inches. Energy Transfer is another "myth" in regard to stopping power. Handgun bullets can not knock a man off of his feet. A bullet will hit a target with no more energy than the recoil felt by the shooter. Its simple physics. Study the conservation of momentum. Any handgun ammo that could knock a typical 180 pound man off of his feet would not only know over the shooter. It would probably break your wrist to fire such a bullet. Where the energy transfer of a bullet is important is that the momentum and small area of the bullet allows it to penetrate less dense flesh, bone ect. to reach vital organs, blood vessels and centran nervous system. Lighter bullets give up a lot of more that momentum than heavier bullets of the same caliber when passing through the body. This is why lighter bullets have to have so much more velocity to achieve the penetrating power of a heavier slug. But more velocity makes bullet fragmentation more likely and could negate the penetrating power of a slug. Also just to settle the issue of temporary wound cavities from handgun ammo its just another myth. Human flesh and organs are highly stretchable with the exception of the liver or brain. Temporary cavities caused by handgun ammo does not wound.
 
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longrifle    RE:Overpenetration and Energy Transfer...CATO   7/9/2006 11:53:08 AM
The bright side to all this is that the facts are equally true for you. Not only can your enemy survive being shot, so can you. Chances are, if you've got the presence of mind to realize "I'm hit," you're going to be alright. Keep shooting, get cover if possible, and don't give up the fight.
 
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Cato    RE:Overpenetration and Energy Transfer   7/9/2006 1:38:33 PM
Thanks, guys! I've been repeatedly amazed by the toughness of the human machine. I've been met by a pt. standing at the curb after being hit in the upper right chest by a 9mm (on Crenshaw Place, Darth), and also the pt. who DOAd after being hit in the abdomen with a .25 auto (abdominal aorta)and hemmorhaged. Of all the wounds that made the pt. drop the Mr. Toughguy persona, the wound to the groin. Guys can play hardass in the back of the box after being shot in most places, but put one in the pelvic girdle, and watch Crip X cry like a bitch. Thanks, Cato
 
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Cato    RE:Gun Fight Myths Dispelled...Smitty237   7/9/2006 1:40:44 PM
>>Several years ago I was forced to shoot a rather large dog that was charging me. Out of four shots fired at the charging dog, I am certain that I struck it no less than three times, and I may have hit it with all four shots. The dog folded in the air, but its momentum carried it forward and it landed on the sidewalk beside me. The dog was still alive, and it wailed and howled until I killed it with a single shot to the head with my Glock .40 caliber<< Hey, Smitty! Was it a pitbull? Thanks, Cato
 
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