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Subject: PM9 vs S&W 340PD
DarthAmerica    6/6/2006 2:01:59 AM
I've been waiting a while to post on this but I wanted to be in possession of both weapons to make a fair comparison. This will be a bit brief and to the point summary of the pros and cons of these two weapons in the concealed carry role. So without futher delay...



PM9-



Pros

Very concealable(especially width)

Very accurate even out to 25 meters

Very controllable in rapid fire

Sweet trigger

Adequate bullet for combat shooting


Cons

If you carry a loose magazine in a pocket a round or two may work its way out potentially leaving you one or two rounds short.

Light trigger pull and no safety makes a holster an absolute must no matter how this weapon is carried.

Short grips make for slightly awkward ergonomics.

Slower draw compared to S&W 340PD

Not heavy by any means but a notable difference compared to the S&W340 PD



I cant say enough good things about this weapon. I can hide it anywhere and hit anything I can see out to 25 meters. This auto is one of the best if not the best concealed carry weapon you could get.


S&W 340PD-



Pros

Very concealable

Very powerful bullet

Very reliable

Quick to draw from any position

So lite you would forget you had it on you.

Cons

Ferocious recoil

Needs a lighter trigger pull

Due to the fact that its a revolver. the cylinder will make it a bit wider profile compared to the PM9.



I cant emphasize the recoil enough. Actually made my shooting had bleed! Getting a good accurate rapid follow up shot would be a challenge without a lot of practice. Painful is an understatement. This is definately not a gun for the faint at heart, pain sensitive or those who arent willing to invest the time, pain and suffering required to master it. But if you did, this is the ultimate fight stopper. And due to its weight, you could carry it in almost any type of clothing heavier than swim wear.




Conclussion

I would have to give the nod to the Kahr. Overall its the more practical of the two guns. The 340PD is a bit much for most people. I hope I'm not being misunderstood. I say that because I know the recoil would turn most off to practice which is a necessity if you plan to use it to its full potential. For me the Karh would fit most of my concealed carry requirements. In the very few cases where it wouldnt due to weight. I would use the 340PD.
 
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ChdNorm    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD   6/9/2006 1:01:31 AM
I've never been a huge fan of the Kahrs for several reasons. But, I am a huge fan of the J-frame S&Ws. I don't see either being really good primary carry sidearms for a couple of reasons. They'd both make exceptional back ups though. I would tend to classify both for that role. Although, the rubber grips on both would have to go if concealability a consideration. On the S&W 340 in particular: I'm not sold on the Scandium framed S&Ws yet. I had a S&W service rep tell me that the design parameters took into account that it would, in most cases, be carried alot and shot seldom. They give it about a 2,000 round service life before the frame is flame cut to the point of being out of spec. I examined one of the Scandium framed L-frames that suuposedly had about 800 rounds thru it that was already pitting the top strap pretty noticably. All things considered ... I'll stick with the 642s in the airwieghts. My all time personal favorite J-frames are the 940s. With the quick pressure curve of the 9mm it loses very little in the way of performance out of it's 2" barrel when compared to a 4" service type sidearm. It's all Stainless, so it wieghs a little more than the 642, and probably about 50% more than the 340s. It's hardly noticable even in an ankle holster or pocket carry though. I tend to think the fastest and least fumble prone reload is a second gun. That also gives a little insurance against a malfunction or stoppage taking you out of fight, before the other guy cries uncle. Currently, if I carry at all, I tend to carry a 2 1/2" S&W 66 in a strong side hip holster and a 642 in either a pocket holster or crossdraw IWB behind the left hip. A couple of Bianchi speed strips in my pocket with .38s for either revolver and I figure that's sufficient for most things short of Commie paratroopers. If a 642 is he primary for whatever reason, a Seecamp is easy to slip in a pocket for about the same effect. As far as carrying on duty, with a duty rig I have always stuck to two spare mags in a horizontal double pouch up front and one spare in a verticle open top pouch (in between my radio and PR-24 ring) for a speed reload if need be. I have always advocated back up guns though. So the bare minimum in addition to the service sidearm is a 642 in the left pants pocket and another in an ankle rig, which I've always found convenient for those walk up and talk to you in the cruiser types even if their next to impossible to draw cleanly from standing.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - ChdNorm   6/9/2006 1:26:35 AM
Kahr PM series has polymer grips.
 
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Cato    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Question for DarthAmerica...   6/9/2006 11:46:17 AM
Darth, I fondled (lovingly, mind you) both of these pieces at my local Turners Outdoorsman yesterday. I must say, I was markedly impressed by the Kahr. It is soooooooo small with absolutely no snags on the frame. My question for you is this: with the super small size of the grips, do you have control problems using overpresure ammo? I seemed that the pistol pointed well, but it almost seemed like a derringer. Neat little piece, though. You were correct about the S&W. The pistol was incredibly light. I couldn't imagine using full power .357 ammo, and expecting decent follow up time on repeat shots. I shoot .357 from a Python with a "4 bbl, and it still roars like a dragon. Go Kahr! Thanks, Cato
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Cato   6/9/2006 12:47:33 PM
Cato, First off I have small hands so the little PM9 isnt too small for me. The Kahr PM9 requires a little adjustment compared to the K9 which I also own due to the size of the grips. But with practice its an easy adjustment even with the most powerful 9mm ammo. For me the accuracy is awesome at personal defence ranges and control in rapid fire is relatively easy. Keep in mind rapid fire doesnt last to long with 7 shots! One thing to note though is presentation. The small grips can be difficult to grasp firmly for a rapid draw. Another thing practice resolves. Also while the weapon is nearly snag free. The square 90 degree angle of the back of the slide can get caught coming out of a pocket or even sometimes from underneath a T-shirt if you arent careful. This is a problem for most autos or revolvers with hammers. The S&W 340PD has a clear advantage here as well. But overall the Kahr is the weapon of choice for most concealed carry personal defense situations IMO.
 
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DarthAmerica    S&W 340PD - UPDATE   6/19/2006 10:07:50 PM
Just got back from the range. Just a FAMFIRE with .38 Special +P rounds instead of the .357 Mags. Amazing difference in recoil. Still not what I would call comfortable but in no way uncontrollable or "painful". Accuracy was great too in spite of the very heavy trigger pull. Its enough of a difference that .38 Special +p will be the primary ammunition until I can work out the recoil issues through more training.
 
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Nichevo    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - DA   6/19/2006 10:24:10 PM
1) How do you like the Glock pattern 9mm Kahr vs their .45? 2) Doesn't Glock make a snubbie like that? Why Kahr (yes, fine name) instead? 3) What bullets and bullet weights do you use (esp in .38/.357?) 4) How do you feel about derringers? Esp. say a 2 shot magnum (maybe .41 Rem Mag) vs. oh, a .32 Seecamp?
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - NICHEVO   6/20/2006 1:12:34 AM
1) How do you like the Glock pattern 9mm Kahr vs their .45? Havent got my hands on the new Kahr yet. But I'd love to give it a try. 2) Doesn't Glock make a snubbie like that? Why Kahr (yes, fine name) instead? You are thinking of the G26 or G27. Theres also a G30, which I own, thats sort of small for a 10 rnd .45 ACP. But its freakin heavy and a bit wide. Shoots well though. I choose the Kahr because its much smaller and lighter. I have kinda small hands so single stacks always feel better for me. A lot of people, most who have never had a gunfight, will say they like the extra 4 rounds. I'm like whatever. I mean its a personal choice and to each their own but... I have found out that there is little need for more than 3 to 5 rounds if that if you know how to use a gun. If you dont then you are just prayin and sprayin anyway. DOnt get me wrong, if I was choosing a duty weapon or military sidearm then you have a legit need for all the extra ammo and a full sized weapon. In which case I have several preferences. But for personal defense concealed carry I go with nice subcompact that doesnt limit me with regard to my clothing and is comfortable enough that I actually carry it. Equally important is being able to shoot and operate it with skill. I view these weapons as last resort weapons. As in if I'm in a bank and it gets robbed. I'm going to lay on the floor and do everything I'm told by the robbers. At least until they do something that makes me feel that someone else or myself in imminent grave danger. So IMO out side of someone pointing a gun at me or threatening immediate bodily injury, I'll probably not have to use a weapon again. But if I do, it will be by suprise and with practiced skill that puts a few rounds into the offenders 10 ring or melons before they have time to realise it. For that I only need a small stealthy accurate weapon poweful enough that a hit or two will end the fight if I do my part. 3) What bullets and bullet weights do you use (esp in .38/.357?) CORBON 125 gr for both but +p for the .38 Special. 4) How do you feel about derringers? Esp. say a 2 shot magnum (maybe .41 Rem Mag) vs. oh, a .32 Seecamp? Well like all weapons from ICBMs to AK's they have their place. I dont necessarily dislike them but their small size makes accuracy difficult beyond arms reach and their low power ammo is below my threshold for minimum self defense caliber. But a gun is better than no gun and if for some reason they are the only practical solution for a particular problem then you gotta do what you gotta do. I've carried a TOMCAT and NAA Mini before. Great guns if you have no other alternatives but I run before presenting one of these weapons if that option was available.
 
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Nichevo    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, firearms   6/20/2006 9:54:15 AM
1) Hasn't Kahr had an ACP pattern mini-45 out for a while? (Am I thinking of Detonics maybe?) And the single stack would be a good fit for your hands; you wouldn't begrudge the smaller clip; the knockdown power would combine with unexceptional recoil. I agree a hideout gun need not be loaded on Sunday and fired all week. In fact - derringers; see below... 2) Glock hasn't the wit to make a single stack snubbie? Well, nobody's perfect ;>. 3) Well then you know that 158s would prob. have higher recoil. Trying to remember...might you do well with a flyweight, like a 117gr? All I know is lower bullet mass = lower recoil momentum. And in the short barrel some loadings do better than others, maybe lighter bullets do better...but this is just fractional braindump from an article long ago. It seems you have settled your affairs pretty smartly. 4) Run away, ha ha. Somebody should send James Bond a memo - he did his work for years on .25 ACP (Beretta) then moved to a 7.62 (7.63?) PPK. (My point is not so much that you should be like a fictional secret agent, but that the Euros seem to think stopping power begins at a far more modest level than we do.) Still I agree the Seecamp would be light for most uses, let alone that toy revolver you posted. No, I meant a man's cartridge, two barrels, e.g., link (what is html to post a pic?) but in anything up to a .45-70, a .45/.410, or such insane loadings (perhaps as backup bear/snake medicine, if you don't like to tote a five pound Redhawk along with your longarm). The derringer rationale of course being as a pocket pistol, something to toss into a purse, tuck into a sleeve; something that might evade a casual search or pass concealed at the beach. Naturally a last-ditch implement. But as I always say about specialty items (like the M1 tank), it may be a tuxedo, and you may only wear the tuxedo once or twice a year, but when you need one there is no substitute.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, firearms   6/20/2006 10:10:00 AM
1. Nah Kahrs .45 just came out. Its not much bigger than the K9 which is saying a lot. 2. Glock has a single stack compact called the G36. Still a bit blocky and heavy IMO. 3. Cant use 117gr., minimum bullet weight is 120gr or more and thats stamped on the barrel. I like the 125gr though. There is a federal low recoil 130gr .357 mag I'll try out again later or next week though. 4. James Bond is entertaining, but thats all it is. People usually dont get hit once with a pistol caliber and fall over dead. But for a intelligence officer who had a requirement to carry a firearm I could understand carrying a mouse gun for concealment. But I doubt a real agent would find occation to use it as often as James!
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, firearms   6/20/2006 3:01:36 PM
>>2) Glock hasn't the wit to make a single stack snubbie? Well, nobody's perfect ;>. << Like DarthAmerica said, Glock does have the G36, a super compact, single-stack .45, but it still has that wide Glock slide on it. I'd say it is a better concealed carry option than most of their pistols (wide slide and excessive grip width as well, due to the use of plastic magazines, hurt all their other designs, no matter how much they chop off the grip and barrel) -- but I'd still say things like the Kahr are superior weapons for concealed carry, in my opinion. Before anyone gets their blood pressure up, allow me to add that for open carry, or "I don't really care who knows I'm carrying but it's under my shirt so the soccer moms don't freak out" sort of concealed carry, Glocks are pretty good pistols. Not my personal cup of tea (the Glock grip angle, among other things), but mechanically reliable, combat-pistol accurate, etc.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, firearms - HS   6/20/2006 3:13:23 PM
Glocks are among my favorites actually. But I prefer their compact Glock 19 due to my hands, its big enough for open carry yet can still be easily concealed, has loads of firepower, tons of accessories and the ammo is common with a lot of my other weapons. Its almost a perfect multirole handgun right out of the box. If Glock would make a Scandium version then it would be perfect...;)
 
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Nichevo    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, James Bond   6/20/2006 7:09:03 PM
While I am a fan I will not get into any 007 issues except to note that he was a crack shot and, of course, assassins go down the caliber chart even to the .22 Short. Stopping power is not so much the issue if your core competency is being able to hit a man in the eye at ten feet. However, in general, Europeans think a .38 is an elephant gun - their notions of stopping power are much meeker than ours - and a .45 is simply typical American overkill. They regard a .32 as a fully appropriate police round, IIRC. (Note that before the .38 Special many US police departments put their faith in the .32 - I believe 'cocaine-crazed Negroes' had something to do with it, like the hopped-up Filipino 'juramentados' pushing the Army fron the .38 Long Colt to the .45) Or is this outdated? I certainly understood this WAS the case. And of course their police philosophy might involve trying to merely wound people, recalling them to their civic duty, rather than actually MAKING them do anything like surrender. But please, any Euros chime in on caliber selection, esp. historic vs. modern (I assume now the 9mm goes for everything). Good luck with the bullet selection. Have you considered porting the barrel, or would you lose too much velocity?
 
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Nichevo    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Mmm, firearms - HS   6/20/2006 7:10:27 PM
Scandium? Isn't that failing in the S&W frames?
 
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Nichevo    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Speaking of James Bond   6/20/2006 7:19:47 PM
Your choice is very reminiscent of the trip Major Boothroys laid down on Bond when M demanded his Beretta after it jammed once too often. Bond was given the Walther PPK and the S&W Centennial Airweight as replacements. I should excerpt the relevant section here, will do so if it would amuse you.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:PM9 vs S&W 340PD - Nichevo   6/20/2006 7:39:52 PM
"Scandium? Isn't that failing in the S&W frames?" Says who? What official data do you have to that effect? This isnt really a theoretical post so I'd like to verify post to the extent possible with first hand experience or links if at all possible.
 
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