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Subject: Little Bullets Lose Respect
Horsesoldier    11/15/2005 9:36:07 AM
A monumental swing and miss by Strategypage on this one . . . >>November 15, 2005: The U.S. Army?s cancellation of the XM8 (a replacement for the M16) reflects disenchantment with the 5.56mm round, more than anything else.<< Which, of course, explains why we cancelled XM8 (which could easily be rechambered for another cartridge/caliber combination) in favor of, um, not to state the obvious, a rifle firing 5.56mm ammunition . . . in fact, mostly in favor of a carbine firing 5.56mm ammunition from a shorter barrel. >>Moreover, the 5.56mm round is less effective in urban fighting, where you often want to shoot through doors and walls.<< No, you really do not "often" want to do so since blind fire means you are just p*ssing away bullets and runs entirely counter to our actual doctrine for doing CQB. You might want to shoot through automobile doors and windshields, but that is another matter. Whoever wrote this does not know what they are talking about. >>The 5.56mm round is not as effective at doing this as is the heavier 7.62mm bullet. And the troops have plenty of 7.62mm weapons available, in order to compare. There is the M240 medium machine-gun. While this 7.62mm weapon is usually mounted on vehicles, it is often taken off and used by infantry for street fighting. Lots of 1960s era 7.62mm M14 rifles have also been taken out of storage and distributed. While used mainly as sniper rifles, the snipers do other work on the battlefield as well, and the troops have been able to see that the heavier 7.62mm round does a better job of shooting through cinder block walls, and taking down bad guys with one shot. Too often, enemy troops require several 5.56mm bullets to put them out of action.<< And an M14 is about the size and length of a boat anchor, making it esteemably unsuitable for CQB use . . . >>In a situation like that, it makes more sense to carry a heavier round. The question is, which one? The army has been experimenting with a 6.8mm round, but now some are demanding that the full size 7.62mm round be brought back.<< Um, no, sorry, there are not, at least not anyone whose opinion means much and who has not been whimpering about this issue since 1965. At least that's what I see, assigned to a USASOC unit -- 95% of the guys I work with are perfectly happy with the SOMOD M4 and the other 5% like 6.8mm. *No one* I work with who is an actual shooter thinks that 7.62x51mm is the answer for any weapon except those intended for sniping and medium machineguns. >>There are M16 type weapons that use the full size 7.62mm round (and the lower powered AK-47 7.62mm round). The new SOCOM SCAR rifle can quickly be adapted to using all of the above by swapping out the barrel and receiver.<< Um, sorry, but no. SCAR-L is the bulk of the contract (something like 120,000 5.56mm SCAR-Ls, less than a quarter of that SCAR-H in 7.62x51mm) and to convert it to fire a round that exceed the overall length of 5.56x45mm (i.e. 7.62x51mm) you have to change out the upper *and* the lower receiver. Which is to say, you need an entirely new weapon, plus/minus the handgrip and shoulder stock. >>Could be that the army is going to wait and see what SOCOM decides to do.<< Or could simply be that the money for an unnecessary change of weapons was not available since we're spending billions each month fighting a war? >>The other big complaint about the M16 is it?s sensitivity to fine dust, as found in Iraq and, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. This stuff causes the rifle (and the light machine-gun version, the M243), to jam. Troops have to be cleaning these weapons constantly. Another problem with the M243 is that most of the ones in service are very old, and in need of a replacement (with new M243s, or a new weapon design.) The XM8 solved much of the ?dust sensitivity? problem, but part of the problem was the smaller round.<< I think the "M243" reference pretty clearly sums up the incompetence of the writer of this piece.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect...M9   11/15/2005 9:30:47 PM
>>Who actually gets issued pistols in the US military? I mean, the .45 vs 9mm argument in pistols is not really heard of in the UK, partly because we have used the 9mm round for so long, and partly because very few of us actually get issued a pistol! Onloy officers of Major rank or above get issued a pistol as standard, although junior officers do have the option.<< Prior to Iraq, it was both officers under most TO&Es and also as a PDW for a range of jobs where a rifle or carbine was seen as clumsy -- i.e. tank crews used to get by with one M16 or M4 per crew and everyone else with M9s. That whole idea kind of went south rapidly when tankers started pulling foot patrols in Baghdad and such. Also, some of our SOF units issue everyone a pistol as a secondary weapon. Since Iraq there has been a recognition that pistols are useful for some CQB applications. One of the requirements noted in the Iraq AARs was the issue of at least a couple pistols per infantry squad that could be handed off as needed to members of the squad when their use was warranted. >>I would sooner put my faith in Sheffield Steel than a pistol as a back-up option.<< Having a pistol to fall back on in a close quarters fight if your primary runs dry or has a stoppage is pretty invaluable. Given a choice between carrying a bayonet or carrying a pistol, I'd take the pistol, personally. But one has to be properly trained to use it -- the bulk of pistol marksmanship training in the US Army is dreadful and dated, as is much of the pre-OIF equipment (holsters etc) still in the system.
 
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Bigbro    RE:Little Bullets Lose Respect...M9   11/15/2005 11:36:57 PM
A note about pistol skills, One of the kids of one of the guys that shot matchs with us started shooting also. I think he made "b" class shooter before he went into the army. Ended up a driver for his CO and the CO had to qualify with his M9. Told his driver to go ahead and try out the pistol. Shot the lights out and was asked to be on the base pistol team. He is a ranger now and had done two trips to the sand box last time I talked to his dad. M9 VS. 1911, glock, XP, H&K, Hi-Power. The M9 would be the last of the lot that I would pick up. At the local cop shop you could pick your own pistol. Newbes would almost always buy a 92F for their first service weapon. Less than a year later they had something else. Never saw one of our plate matches won with a 92 in five years of matches. 5000 rounds a year though my 1911 .45, I had the factor slide stop break in year three. You do need to replace the recoil spring every 1500 rds however. 9x19 is OK, 9x23 winchester in a Glock or H&K that would be the best of all worlds. Bb
 
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