Stopping Power

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bomber RE:.223 on deer 2/2/2005 7:14:34 AM

Just to clarify a few things, Evan Marshall's books on the 9mm and it's stopping power were utterly slated. He was in bed with several big companies which had vested interests in 9mm ammunition and the weapons that fire it. He's always banged on in the shooting press about the qualities of the 9mm and in truth those who have to carry a weapon in an enviroment and have a choice of calibres go fo something like the .40 S&W. There is a massive difference between the 9mm and the .45ACP. Condsider the HK SOCOM and USP pistols. They're designed to to happily cope with the .45+P ammunition which has significantly increased kinetic energy at longer ranges...but that's not really the issue. You're not going to buy/carry pistols for long range shots or for penetrating light ballistic armour. You're carrying a pistol in military environment as a last-ditch or backup option. You are going to be shooting at 10m or less and the fight will be over very quickly. The only rule of thumb for stopping power that ever works is Chuck Taylor's TKO (Taylor Knockout Index) which is a simplified version of Jeff Cooper's rather complex formula. As for the ability to incapacitate (stopping power), consider that there are only three mechanisms that can potentially have a bearing on stopping power: 1) The Permananent cavity 2) The Temporary cavity 3) The supersonic shockwave radiating away from the impact (i've included this as some people still believe this actually dies something) Number 3 has no bearing on anything and has been proven to be a red herring. According to Dr Martin Fackler (world renoun wound ballistics expert) and Patrick Urey (Ballistics expert for the FBI at Quantico) have always said the temporary cavity (when tissue momentarily moves away from the bullet) does no damage whatsoever. This is essentially proven by ballistic armour when a soft vest defeats a round you are effectively cutting out the permanent cavity. The projectile still transfers a large chunk of energy into the human body but rarely does any damage occur. The permananent cavity is the ONLY mechnaism that can incapacitate. When designing a weapon to kill another person the only thing that acually matters is that the projectile has sufficient mass, velocity and diameter when it arrives at the target. You cannot guarentee that the projectile will penetrate a large blood bearing organ or that the enemy solder will wimp out when he receives a non-critical injury from a bullet. The only thing you can guarentee is if the projectile strikes the centre of mass that a large permanent cavity will be produced. The 5.56 and the 9mm are compromise rounds. They're easy to shoot but they're only marginally effective at short ranges. The problem as I see it si that weapon designers have been concentrating on the weapon and not the ammunition. The reason that the 5.56 SS109/M955 bullets penetrate better than a 7.62 NATO is that they have a steel forward penetrator under the jacket so it's not a fair comparison. Carrying and needing 17 to 20 round in a pistol in my my opinion is not a good idea. Look at professionals who use 9mm pistols, how do they shoot? Double-taps/Controlled pairs, that drops a glock 17's effective mag capacity fom a comfortable 17 rounds down to 8.5. Take an HK SOCOM with 12 rounds. You'll only fire these rounds singly but when the hit the target you have a far better chance of a one shot stop. One thing to remember is that Evan Marshall's book on "Stopping power" is fabricated drivel and it was proved to be just that when it was first published.

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Bigbro RE:.223 on deer - bomber 2/4/2005 12:35:13 PM

link This is my modification of TKO but I think that it was not Chuck Taylor but John Taylor who put this togehter, (African Rifles and Cartridges, John Taylor, Safari Press 1994). My modification takes into account the potential for a bullet to produce a permant wound cavity. the value that you get for a given mass of target is the minimum value needed. there are several peramitors that are not covered in the equation and if there is interest let me know and I will go into detail. Bb

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ls_freak RE:.223 on deer 2/9/2005 2:17:18 PM

I don't know much about pistol calibers, however, I do know a 9x19mm will punch through body armor while a .45 won't. For rifles, 5.56mm has more energy to a farther distance than 7.62mm, the 5.56mm can be fired in bursts effectively to longer ranges than the 7.62mm because of less reoil, and 5.56mm has better penetration. However, the 6.8 SPC has more energy and more mass than the 5.56mm, making it better than both, and the 6.5mm Grendel has even more energy, higher velocity, and better accuracy than any of the above mentioned beyond 500 meters. For sniper rifles, the 7.62mm is good enough for sniping out to 800-1000 meters, but if a 6.5mm rifle is fitted with a good scope, the 6.5mm would outperform it in terms of energy, velocity, and penetration. The .388 Lapua loses effectiveness at about 1200 meters, but is very powerful at ranges under that. The .50BMG has the best anti-material capability out to 1800+ meters, but starts to lose effectiveness at those ranges against non-material targets, plus accuracy at those ranges is starting to get questionable (M107 is listed at 2MoA, meaning at 1800m, 36" groups are fired). The .408 has greater energy and velocity than a .50 starting at around 400 meters (I think, I could be mistaken), and maintains sub-MoA accuracy out to 2500 meters (something like ruetine 24" groups at 2200 meters, while a .50 would be expected to shoot 44 inche groups).

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fitz RE:Stopping Power - Pistols 2/9/2005 4:56:19 PM

Neither 9mm nor .45 cal is especially noteworthy for stopping power in FMJ.

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Shooter RE:.223 on deer 2/10/2005 8:48:26 PM

Where did you find out that Marshals research was "drival"? When I looked into it for our unit, the statistics seemed to bear out our colective expiriance. When shooting ball, the energy of the round delivered to the target seems to be the first order function of effectiveness. As to temporary cavity being insignificant, and Martin Flaker's ideas, well lets just say that he has his agenda too. But I will absolutely gurantee that a 220 swift that only penitraits 5" will be fatal about twice as often as a .308 ball round that goes all the way threw after turning sideways and breaking in half. ( Both pieces!) I recomend that you go to the NILE site or the FBIs "Uniform Crime Statistics report for more data. Because most but not all of what you said is BS!

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Shooter RE:.223 on deer 2/10/2005 9:11:39 PM

Most of what you posted is BS. The grouping and effectiveness of many of the round you site is incorect. 1. The 7.62x51MM NATO is effective to 1,100 meters and will peforate both sides of traditiona body armor at that range. Acuracy and grouping depend on the rifle/ammo combination. 2. The 6.5 Grendel when fired out of battle weight rifles is totaly uncontrolable. About twice as bad as the M-14 on full auto. I used to bet people $20 that they could not hold the whole magazine on a broadside tank target (Thats 20' by 8') at 80 yards with my M-14E2 in a single burst. I never lost! The 6.5 Grendal does beat the .308 at longer ranges when it is compaired to standard BC bullets. However it falls very far behind when matched against something like the Berger VLD projectile. There is not enough powder volume to get the same MV and the 123 grain Secnar has a lower BC than the Berger's .618 and aditional 150 F/S MV! 3. The long bullets that make many of those "small calliber" sniper rounds effective at longer ranges reduce penitration dramaticaly and thus effectivness. 4. The 5.56 never has even half as much energy as the 7.62x51 at any range! Ever! 5. The record for 1,000M was held by a .308/7.62x51 at about 3.6" IIRC and beat the best .50 Cal group by about half an inch. Many .50s will groupe well under 20" at 2,000 meters. 6. The BC of the .50 Cal rounds you site is well below the best. I recomend that you try the Barns 850 grain solid brass CNC turned bullet. The BC is well over ONE! and when launched at maximum MV it will out range any factory 20/23/25 MM round on the planet! (BY A VERY LARGE MARGINE!) If you have a rifle that likes it it will group quite well too! 7. Stopping power is not realivant to sniper rifles. ask the LEO data base about the effectiveness in police shootings if you dought this.

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Bigbro RE:.223 on deer - shooter 2/12/2005 12:21:36 PM

From gutting deer that have been hit with different rounds and looking at wound volumes I would say that a 22-250, have not seen a deer shot with a 220 swift, at under 200 yards will produce a larger wound volume than a non expanding 7.62, .308, round. the wound will be as you said shallow but will be of large volume. this works great if you hit the deer in the ribs but if you hit them quartering or in the butt or chest can result in a mess. On targets with a shallow chest, IE humans, a shallow wound is perferable for quick incapcitation. As an example on coyotes a .223 rem. will drop them much faster than a 06 or 7mm. I shot one dog once with my .280, 145 gr. BTSP at 165 steps, quartering shot threw the lungs, at point of impact a great deal of lung tissue was on the ground, the coyote got up and ran 200 yds before it stopped. with a .223 they just fall over. But if you increase the animal weight to 200 pounds like a deer, the .280 with the same bullet has resulted, for me, in almost 100% of deer stopping in less than 20 yards. The .223 will result in them running 75 to 150 yards. Both die, just how soon. AS far as I am concerned the 9x19 is a POS, only when loaded with very good expanding bullets at +P+ pressures does it reach an effective level and then at short engaugement ranges. With FMJ's jackrabbits get up and run off after being hit. A .45 ACP will put them down. 185 gr. .45 jhp's at 30 to 50 yards have been one shot stops on coyotes, they just drop and do not move. (185 gr. XPT hand loads at 1000 fps). .357 mag 125 gr. at 1400 fps will get the same results. I have given up on the 9x19 and don't have any data on coyotes with it. I have been blessed that I have not had to find out what works and doesn't on humans. Bb

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Bigbro RE:Stopping Power 2/13/2005 7:29:50 PM

# target is the weight in pounds of the critter you are shooting. fps is the impact velocity of the bullet. at the fps is listed minimum bullet weights to give a lethal wound at the velocity listed. If you graf this log / log it is a strate line. This is predicitive of wound volume based on some assumptions. below 1800 fps bullet diameter must be at least 9mm. at impact velocities form 1800 to 2800 fps bullet must have a 4X increase in suface area, expansion, fragmentation or have a sectional density high enough so that yaw will yeild 4x. above 2800 fps leathality is increased, if energy dump is high, as to instantanous clotting of blood in crush cavity and rusulting disruption of circulation. # target800 fps 900 fps 1000 fps1200 fps1400 fps1600 fps2000fps 100 208 185 167 139 119 104 83 120 221 197 177 148 127 111 89 140 233 207 186 155 133 117 93 160 244 217 195 162 139 122 97 180 253 225 203 169 145 127 101 200 263 233 210 175 150 131 105 220 271 241 217 181 155 135 108 240 279 248 223 186 159 139 112 260 286 255 229 191 164 143 115 280 294 261 235 196 168 147 117 300 300 267 240 200 172 150 120 400 331 294 265 220 189 165 132 500 356 317 285 238 204 178 143 600 379 337 303 252 216 189 151 700 399 354 319 266 228 199 159 800 417 370 333 278 238 208 167 900 433 385 347 289 248 217 173 1000 449 399 359 299 256 224 180 2000 566 503 452 377 323 283 226 3000 647 575 518 432 370 324 259 4000 713 633 570 475 407 356 285 5000 768 682 614 512 439 384 307 6000 816 725 653 544 466 408 326 7000 859 763 687 572 491 429 343 8000 898 798 718 598 513 449 359 9000 934 830 747 622 534 467 373 10000 967 860 774 645 553 484 387 # target2400 fps2250 fps2600 fps2700 fps2800 fps2900 fps3000 fps 100 69 74 64 62 60 57 56 120 74 79 68 66 63 61 59 140 78 83 72 69 67 64 62 160 81 87 75 72 70 67 65 180 84 90 78 75 72 70 68 200 88 93 81 78 75 72 70 220 90 96 83 80 77 75 72 240 93 99 86 83 80 77 74 260 95 102 88 85 82 79 76 280 98 104 90 87 84 81 78 300 100 107 92 89 86 83 80 400 110 118 102 98 94 91 88 500 119 127 110 106 102 98 95 600 126 135 116 112 108 104 101 700 133 142 123 118 114 110 106 800 139 148 128 123 119 115 111 900 144 154 133 128 124 120 116 1000 150 160 138 133 128 124 120 2000 189 201 174 168 162 156 151 3000 216 230 199 192 185 179 173 4000 238 253 219 211 204 197 190 5000 256 273 236 227 219 212 205 6000 272 290 251 242 233 225 218 7000 286 305 264 254 245 237 229 8000 299 319 276 266 256 248 239 9000 311 332 287 277 267 258 249 10000 322 344 298 287 276 267 258 bullet wt. Required at indicated velocity to produce minimum lethal wound

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Bigbro RE:.223 on deer - shooter 2/13/2005 7:33:39 PM

# target is the wt in pounds of the target animal. fps is impact velocity of bullet value in table is the minimum, bullet weight at the velocity indicated to produce rapidly lethal wound. below 1800 fps bullet diameter must be 9mm or larger. 1800 to 2800 fps bullet must have a increase in frontal diameter of 4X due to expansion, fragmentation or yaw. above 2800 fps lethality is increased if energy dump is rapid due to mass clotting of blood and disruption of circulation, # target800 fps 900 fps 1000 fps1200 fps1400 fps1600 fps2000fps 100 208 185 167 139 119 104 83 120 221 197 177 148 127 111 89 140 233 207 186 155 133 117 93 160 244 217 195 162 139 122 97 180 253 225 203 169 145 127 101 200 263 233 210 175 150 131 105 220 271 241 217 181 155 135 108 240 279 248 223 186 159 139 112 260 286 255 229 191 164 143 115 280 294 261 235 196 168 147 117 300 300 267 240 200 172 150 120 400 331 294 265 220 189 165 132 500 356 317 285 238 204 178 143 600 379 337 303 252 216 189 151 700 399 354 319 266 228 199 159 800 417 370 333 278 238 208 167 900 433 385 347 289 248 217 173 1000 449 399 359 299 256 224 180 2000 566 503 452 377 323 283 226 3000 647 575 518 432 370 324 259 4000 713 633 570 475 407 356 285 5000 768 682 614 512 439 384 307 6000 816 725 653 544 466 408 326 7000 859 763 687 572 491 429 343 8000 898 798 718 598 513 449 359 9000 934 830 747 622 534 467 373 10000 967 860 774 645 553 484 387 # target2400 fps2250 fps2600 fps2700 fps2800 fps2900 fps3000 fps 100 69 74 64 62 60 57 56 120 74 79 68 66 63 61 59 140 78 83 72 69 67 64 62 160 81 87 75 72 70 67 65 180 84 90 78 75 72 70 68 200 88 93 81 78 75 72 70 220 90 96 83 80 77 75 72 240 93 99 86 83 80 77 74 260 95 102 88 85 82 79 76 280 98 104 90 87 84 81 78 300 100 107 92 89 86 83 80 400 110 118 102 98 94 91 88 500 119 127 110 106 102 98 95 600 126 135 116 112 108 104 101 700 133 142 123 118 114 110 106 800 139 148 128 123 119 115 111 900 144 154 133 128 124 120 116 1000 150 160 138 133 128 124 120 2000 189 201 174 168 162 156 151 3000 216 230 199 192 185 179 173 4000 238 253 219 211 204 197 190 5000 256 273 236 227 219 212 205 6000 272 290 251 242 233 225 218 7000 286 305 264 254 245 237 229 8000 299 319 276 266 256 248 239 9000 311 332 287 277 267 258 249 10000 322 344 298 287 276 267 258

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boer RE:Stopping Power 2/16/2005 10:36:10 AM

Does anyone know how good the russian 9x19 7n31 round is in stopping things? they say it has 20% more stopping power then a normal 9x19, so it will probaly have a stopping power of ± 600 joule,is this enough? and is the .22 (lr)stinger jhp round any good? ive heard it was pretty effective but it doesn't have much stopping power (273 joule).

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