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Subject: Stopping Power
whisperz    11/17/2004 12:02:05 PM
Bottom line. 7.62mm over 5.56mm in a military rifle. (military rifle in what most soldiers in an army would use.) .45 caliber over 9mm. in a pistol cartridge.
 
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Shooter    RE:.223 on deer   2/10/2005 9:11:39 PM
Most of what you posted is BS. The grouping and effectiveness of many of the round you site is incorect. 1. The 7.62x51MM NATO is effective to 1,100 meters and will peforate both sides of traditiona body armor at that range. Acuracy and grouping depend on the rifle/ammo combination. 2. The 6.5 Grendel when fired out of battle weight rifles is totaly uncontrolable. About twice as bad as the M-14 on full auto. I used to bet people $20 that they could not hold the whole magazine on a broadside tank target (Thats 20' by 8') at 80 yards with my M-14E2 in a single burst. I never lost! The 6.5 Grendal does beat the .308 at longer ranges when it is compaired to standard BC bullets. However it falls very far behind when matched against something like the Berger VLD projectile. There is not enough powder volume to get the same MV and the 123 grain Secnar has a lower BC than the Berger's .618 and aditional 150 F/S MV! 3. The long bullets that make many of those "small calliber" sniper rounds effective at longer ranges reduce penitration dramaticaly and thus effectivness. 4. The 5.56 never has even half as much energy as the 7.62x51 at any range! Ever! 5. The record for 1,000M was held by a .308/7.62x51 at about 3.6" IIRC and beat the best .50 Cal group by about half an inch. Many .50s will groupe well under 20" at 2,000 meters. 6. The BC of the .50 Cal rounds you site is well below the best. I recomend that you try the Barns 850 grain solid brass CNC turned bullet. The BC is well over ONE! and when launched at maximum MV it will out range any factory 20/23/25 MM round on the planet! (BY A VERY LARGE MARGINE!) If you have a rifle that likes it it will group quite well too! 7. Stopping power is not realivant to sniper rifles. ask the LEO data base about the effectiveness in police shootings if you dought this.
 
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Bigbro    RE:.223 on deer - shooter   2/12/2005 12:21:36 PM
From gutting deer that have been hit with different rounds and looking at wound volumes I would say that a 22-250, have not seen a deer shot with a 220 swift, at under 200 yards will produce a larger wound volume than a non expanding 7.62, .308, round. the wound will be as you said shallow but will be of large volume. this works great if you hit the deer in the ribs but if you hit them quartering or in the butt or chest can result in a mess. On targets with a shallow chest, IE humans, a shallow wound is perferable for quick incapcitation. As an example on coyotes a .223 rem. will drop them much faster than a 06 or 7mm. I shot one dog once with my .280, 145 gr. BTSP at 165 steps, quartering shot threw the lungs, at point of impact a great deal of lung tissue was on the ground, the coyote got up and ran 200 yds before it stopped. with a .223 they just fall over. But if you increase the animal weight to 200 pounds like a deer, the .280 with the same bullet has resulted, for me, in almost 100% of deer stopping in less than 20 yards. The .223 will result in them running 75 to 150 yards. Both die, just how soon. AS far as I am concerned the 9x19 is a POS, only when loaded with very good expanding bullets at +P+ pressures does it reach an effective level and then at short engaugement ranges. With FMJ's jackrabbits get up and run off after being hit. A .45 ACP will put them down. 185 gr. .45 jhp's at 30 to 50 yards have been one shot stops on coyotes, they just drop and do not move. (185 gr. XPT hand loads at 1000 fps). .357 mag 125 gr. at 1400 fps will get the same results. I have given up on the 9x19 and don't have any data on coyotes with it. I have been blessed that I have not had to find out what works and doesn't on humans. Bb
 
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Bigbro    RE:Stopping Power    2/13/2005 7:29:50 PM
# target is the weight in pounds of the critter you are shooting. fps is the impact velocity of the bullet. at the fps is listed minimum bullet weights to give a lethal wound at the velocity listed. If you graf this log / log it is a strate line. This is predicitive of wound volume based on some assumptions. below 1800 fps bullet diameter must be at least 9mm. at impact velocities form 1800 to 2800 fps bullet must have a 4X increase in suface area, expansion, fragmentation or have a sectional density high enough so that yaw will yeild 4x. above 2800 fps leathality is increased, if energy dump is high, as to instantanous clotting of blood in crush cavity and rusulting disruption of circulation. # target800 fps 900 fps 1000 fps1200 fps1400 fps1600 fps2000fps 100 208 185 167 139 119 104 83 120 221 197 177 148 127 111 89 140 233 207 186 155 133 117 93 160 244 217 195 162 139 122 97 180 253 225 203 169 145 127 101 200 263 233 210 175 150 131 105 220 271 241 217 181 155 135 108 240 279 248 223 186 159 139 112 260 286 255 229 191 164 143 115 280 294 261 235 196 168 147 117 300 300 267 240 200 172 150 120 400 331 294 265 220 189 165 132 500 356 317 285 238 204 178 143 600 379 337 303 252 216 189 151 700 399 354 319 266 228 199 159 800 417 370 333 278 238 208 167 900 433 385 347 289 248 217 173 1000 449 399 359 299 256 224 180 2000 566 503 452 377 323 283 226 3000 647 575 518 432 370 324 259 4000 713 633 570 475 407 356 285 5000 768 682 614 512 439 384 307 6000 816 725 653 544 466 408 326 7000 859 763 687 572 491 429 343 8000 898 798 718 598 513 449 359 9000 934 830 747 622 534 467 373 10000 967 860 774 645 553 484 387 # target2400 fps2250 fps2600 fps2700 fps2800 fps2900 fps3000 fps 100 69 74 64 62 60 57 56 120 74 79 68 66 63 61 59 140 78 83 72 69 67 64 62 160 81 87 75 72 70 67 65 180 84 90 78 75 72 70 68 200 88 93 81 78 75 72 70 220 90 96 83 80 77 75 72 240 93 99 86 83 80 77 74 260 95 102 88 85 82 79 76 280 98 104 90 87 84 81 78 300 100 107 92 89 86 83 80 400 110 118 102 98 94 91 88 500 119 127 110 106 102 98 95 600 126 135 116 112 108 104 101 700 133 142 123 118 114 110 106 800 139 148 128 123 119 115 111 900 144 154 133 128 124 120 116 1000 150 160 138 133 128 124 120 2000 189 201 174 168 162 156 151 3000 216 230 199 192 185 179 173 4000 238 253 219 211 204 197 190 5000 256 273 236 227 219 212 205 6000 272 290 251 242 233 225 218 7000 286 305 264 254 245 237 229 8000 299 319 276 266 256 248 239 9000 311 332 287 277 267 258 249 10000 322 344 298 287 276 267 258 bullet wt. Required at indicated velocity to produce minimum lethal wound
 
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Bigbro    RE:.223 on deer - shooter   2/13/2005 7:33:39 PM
# target is the wt in pounds of the target animal. fps is impact velocity of bullet value in table is the minimum, bullet weight at the velocity indicated to produce rapidly lethal wound. below 1800 fps bullet diameter must be 9mm or larger. 1800 to 2800 fps bullet must have a increase in frontal diameter of 4X due to expansion, fragmentation or yaw. above 2800 fps lethality is increased if energy dump is rapid due to mass clotting of blood and disruption of circulation, # target800 fps 900 fps 1000 fps1200 fps1400 fps1600 fps2000fps 100 208 185 167 139 119 104 83 120 221 197 177 148 127 111 89 140 233 207 186 155 133 117 93 160 244 217 195 162 139 122 97 180 253 225 203 169 145 127 101 200 263 233 210 175 150 131 105 220 271 241 217 181 155 135 108 240 279 248 223 186 159 139 112 260 286 255 229 191 164 143 115 280 294 261 235 196 168 147 117 300 300 267 240 200 172 150 120 400 331 294 265 220 189 165 132 500 356 317 285 238 204 178 143 600 379 337 303 252 216 189 151 700 399 354 319 266 228 199 159 800 417 370 333 278 238 208 167 900 433 385 347 289 248 217 173 1000 449 399 359 299 256 224 180 2000 566 503 452 377 323 283 226 3000 647 575 518 432 370 324 259 4000 713 633 570 475 407 356 285 5000 768 682 614 512 439 384 307 6000 816 725 653 544 466 408 326 7000 859 763 687 572 491 429 343 8000 898 798 718 598 513 449 359 9000 934 830 747 622 534 467 373 10000 967 860 774 645 553 484 387 # target2400 fps2250 fps2600 fps2700 fps2800 fps2900 fps3000 fps 100 69 74 64 62 60 57 56 120 74 79 68 66 63 61 59 140 78 83 72 69 67 64 62 160 81 87 75 72 70 67 65 180 84 90 78 75 72 70 68 200 88 93 81 78 75 72 70 220 90 96 83 80 77 75 72 240 93 99 86 83 80 77 74 260 95 102 88 85 82 79 76 280 98 104 90 87 84 81 78 300 100 107 92 89 86 83 80 400 110 118 102 98 94 91 88 500 119 127 110 106 102 98 95 600 126 135 116 112 108 104 101 700 133 142 123 118 114 110 106 800 139 148 128 123 119 115 111 900 144 154 133 128 124 120 116 1000 150 160 138 133 128 124 120 2000 189 201 174 168 162 156 151 3000 216 230 199 192 185 179 173 4000 238 253 219 211 204 197 190 5000 256 273 236 227 219 212 205 6000 272 290 251 242 233 225 218 7000 286 305 264 254 245 237 229 8000 299 319 276 266 256 248 239 9000 311 332 287 277 267 258 249 10000 322 344 298 287 276 267 258
 
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boer    RE:Stopping Power    2/16/2005 10:36:10 AM
Does anyone know how good the russian 9x19 7n31 round is in stopping things? they say it has 20% more stopping power then a normal 9x19, so it will probaly have a stopping power of ± 600 joule,is this enough? and is the .22 (lr)stinger jhp round any good? ive heard it was pretty effective but it doesn't have much stopping power (273 joule).
 
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Bigbro    RE:Stopping Power - boer    2/16/2005 7:31:30 PM
I have used the CCI stingers, biggest thing I shot with them was a badger that went about 30 pounds. He was only 6 feet away and it was a head shot. The bullets open up very quickly and do not give much in the way of penitration. on small stuff they work great but in my .22's they are not as accurate as some of the other high performance .22lr rounds. In my rifles they function very well but in my pistol sometimes they are more of a problem. hope that helps. have no information on the 9x19 7n31 sorry. Bb
 
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gixxxerking    Stopping Power Myths   2/19/2005 10:27:16 PM
I didnt read any of the most recent books. But I have shot a man with a .45 cal round before. He was standing 2 meters in front of me behind a wooden door with stain glass windows in it. The round went through one of the glass and hit him in the upper chest just above his heart. The impact knocked him backwards onto the ground instantly! But he got right up screaming in pain and ran for it. He got about 50 meters before collapsing from fatigue and blood loss. I recovered the bullet which COMPLETELY penetrated him and went into the grass. It was a 165 gr. Federal Hydra Shok. It expanded to 2x its original diameter. The bullet retained almost 100% mass and blossomed into 7 petals, one of which broke off and I never found it. I later broke off another petal fooling around with the slug which I still have. The lesson I learned that night was that no matter what bullet you fire from a pistol, if it doesnt hit a vital organ or the central nervous system, most people will still be able to fight back long enough to return the favor.
 
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Shooter    RE:Stopping Power/ is the .22 (lr)stinger jhp round any good?   3/10/2005 7:58:13 PM
Stopping power is a function of two things. Energy and wound cavity volume. The .22LR has little true "STOPPING POWER" as it is defined by any expert. But it UNQUESTIONABLY HAS THE HIGHEST PECENTAGE OF ONE SHOT STOPS OF ANY MILLITARY SERVICE AMMO. AMOUNG EXPERTS THE LITE BULLET ROUNDS ARE NOT WELL THOUGHT OF. (Stinger, Viper, Expeeder, 32-34 grains weight, Etc.) Most pros recomend the solid nose 40 or 42 grain bullet for "serious" work. It has a nearly 100% rating in the real world.
 
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GOP    RE:Stopping Power    3/11/2005 10:20:54 PM
For full automatic, the 5.56 is a near perfect round. I have never shot a full or burst fire M-4, but I have heard read stories of the 5.56 being much easier to control in full auto, due to the less kick and the gun does not "rise" as much. Also, the 5.56 round fragments inside the target, so in theory, does more damage. But, for someone like me who is not yet in the military, and only is concerned about 'home defense', it is all about shot placement. You can shoot a 50 BMG at a target, and if it only hits his leg, he probably will not die (immediately), although he might lose a limb
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Stopping Power/ is the .22 (lr)stinger jhp round any good?   3/12/2005 2:08:15 AM
link
 
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GOP    RE:Stopping Power - Gixxerking   3/13/2005 10:34:52 PM
I would have to agree with you about hitting a vital organ. I have never even come close to shooting a person, or even a deer :( , but I do know that if you misplace a shot or hit someone in the leg, etc, then they will have enough adrenaline to forget the pain and fire back. Who did you shoot, a Insurgent?
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Stopping Power - Gixxerking   3/14/2005 1:17:49 AM
No. Thats not from an insurgent. We use ball ammunition to shoot them...;) That was from my tour of duty in LA with a personal weapon. The police gave me the bullet back after the investigation concluded the shooting justified. Now I'm not so paranoid about caliber. I'm much more into shot placement which I have found to be far more important if you need to stop a fight right now.
 
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buz       3/25/2009 11:46:42 AM
20 years ago I walked into a pawn shop to buy something, When I intered the store I notice two men ( the owners ) laying
on the floor dead. I found out later that both men had been shot at close range thru the head and cheast with a 22lr, and that the purp had his rifle pointed at me when I walked thru the door but had run out of bullets when he pulled the trigger to shot me. He was in the storage room with the lights out hidding when I walked in. I DON"T GIVE A RATS BEHIND what anyone says about what a wimp a 22 round is! DEAD IS DEAD! And yes, both these men were armed but did not have a chance to draw there weapons before being KILLED, BY A 22!!!
 
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Ispose    Bullet performance   3/25/2009 3:43:36 PM
I shot a big Bull Moose back in 91. I was using a Remington 721 .300 H&H Magnum loaded with 180 gr Barnes X Bullets (These are solid copper bullets that expand but don't fragment)
The Moose was about 130 yds away and broadsides. I hit a rib going in, shattered it...hit the heart and blew it into 3 pieces...hit another rib going out and left a hole about 4" with lung tissue hanging in the brush behind him. He went about 5 ft out of reflex and fell over.
Now a .300 H&H is much more of a round than a 5.56 but it isn't that much more than a 7.62 NATO. Bottom line is that you won't get similar results from a 5.56 round.
A lot has been said about the modern US army using mainly single well placed shots in combat...this is because of better training, optics, etc. This means that the arguement that the 5.56 is more controllable in full auto and can carry more ammo fallacious...If you are using one shot at a time and beacuse of that you do not expend as much ammo...why not use a more lethel, harder hitting round?
The only downside to this arguement comes down to the squad machine gunner...do we want to go back to the M240 as the squad machine gun just to keep commonality in ammo caliber in the unit?
 
 
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WarNerd       3/26/2009 5:25:17 AM

A lot has been said about the modern US army using mainly single well placed shots in combat...this is because of better training, optics, etc. This means that the arguement that the 5.56 is more controllable in full auto and can carry more ammo fallacious...If you are using one shot at a time and beacuse of that you do not expend as much ammo...why not use a more lethel, harder hitting round?

You may not expend your ammo as quickly, but you will eventually run out.  If one side in a firefight runs out before the other, then they better have a safe line of retreat or they are SOL.
 
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