Stopping Power

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Yimmy RE:Stopping Power 11/17/2004 1:04:41 PM

Er.... why? Concerning 7.62x51mm NATO vs 5.56x45mm NATO, although the 7.62mm may appear to be more the "mans rifle", it is not as effective in combat. Which round do you think has the more "stopping power" in theory? The large round which smacks into the enemy, yaws a bit, and departs the enemy out the back; or the smaller round which hits the enemy, yaws, fragments, and does not exit the enemy, and so dumping all its energy into the target? Of course, the 5.56mm round will only fragment at short range; however it should be noted that it can pierce a steal helmit at greater distance than the 7.62mm round can. With the 5.56mm round you can also carry more for the same weight, and shoot it more accurately with less recoil. Of course, 7.62mm is the better round for breaking through brick work and the likes, and the West german 7.62mm round will even fragment as if it were a 5.56mm round; buit trade offs have to be made, and on the whole the light and effective 5.56mm round is widely deemed superior for rifles. The 7.62mm round being better for medium MG's. As for 9x19mm vs .45; again, 9mm is clearly superior on the moern battle field. A weapon can carry more 9mm rounds than it can .45 rounds, the 9mm has a slightly flatter trajectory, and there are far more armour piercing rounds available which have some success. A .45 round has the flying qualities of a fridge, it will not go through much in the way of body armour.

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eon RE:Stopping Power 11/18/2004 9:49:00 AM

I define "stopping power" as follows; if it impacts the body with a remaining energy at least 2x the average body weight of the target, it will do enough damage to shut him/her/it down. This works out to an energy of about 500 fpe, or 700J if you prefer MKS, at the receiving end. Back during WWII, the Red Army concluded that to inflict a deadly/debilitating wound required an energy of roughly 420J, or about 300 fpe. Hence, the 7.62 x 39 M1943 round was formulated to deliver this much "whomp" to the target at 300 metres, which they concluded was the farthest any soldier other than a sniper or machinegunner could be rationally expected to engage a single target, ie. an enemy soldier with IW fire. I think these two factors pretty well sum up the concept- and show that most rifle rounds, "intermediate" or otherwise, have all the power they need for the job, and that most pistol rounds (other than Magnums and such intermediate oddities as the 10mm family) are somewhat lacking in this department. I now await the screams of rage, brickbats, etc, from all quarters. eon.

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Crosshair RE:Stopping Power 11/19/2004 3:00:42 AM

If .223 is such an effective round. (From my experience) Why do so few people hunt deer with them. If a .223 can't stop a harmless deer, how is it going to stop some guy trying to kill you. 7.62x39 is a good deer round if SP/HP rounds are used within 150 yards. In fact manny people buy SKS's because they make good brush guns, much like a 30-30. 7.62x51 will often kill the deer without it taking more than 5 steps.

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Yimmy RE:Stopping Power 11/19/2004 8:11:30 AM

In America it is illegal to hunt dear with .223 in most states. And due to the 556 round not always fragmenting and not always causing a large wound channel, shot placement would be very important.

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eon RE:.223 on deer 11/20/2004 3:25:14 PM

Also, since the typical .223 bullet generates its wound channel by fragmentation resulting in massive avulsion (permanent crush cavity), the result would be a good deal of meat being bloodshot and spoiled. The .223 is actually quite effective on deer-sized animals, but it's not a practical round if you like venison..

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Bigbro RE:.223 on deer 12/4/2004 4:56:02 PM

There are several .224 bullets that do not seem to fragment much, WW 64 gr. power point, Hornady 55gr. designed for the 22-250, 60 gr. Hornady HP (I know, but this bullet performs well in a .223), Nosler partition and the Barns X bullets. Still on Mule deer it is a short range deal, under 150 to 200 yards. There may be others. The 64 gr. Power point will not open up fast enough on coyotes, they just run off. the two Hornady's will open up on the dogs so seem to be a softer. The Barnes and the Nosler are too pricy for me to be shooting dogs with them.

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Shooter RE:.223 on deer 1/5/2005 5:38:35 PM

You are right eon. There is not much difference between 9 mm and 45 cal, UNLESS the target is whearing cheep body armor. Then SOME 9 mm rounds will go threw but no SERVICE 45 will. Again check Evan Marshall's book on "Stopping power" to get the facts.

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boer RE:Stopping Power 1/7/2005 9:51:13 AM

the best .45acp round will have a stopping power of 572 joule, a 9mm will have 598 joule. the only problem of a 9mm is overpenetration but that problem is sovled by using jhp rounds. If you want a good pistol cartridge, but still enough rounds in a clip you must take a 10mm (it will have more penetration than a .45)

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Shooter RE:Stopping Power 1/12/2005 12:25:58 AM

You are siting the hottest 9mm amo verses standard .45 rounds. +P .45 has >737 Joules of energy! That is modern ammo that can be fired in any modern .45 in good order. +P+ .45 or .45 SUPER as it is also known, only to be fired in specialy built guns gives 1,500 joules. Niether round is issued because recoil is to stiff for the average trainee or expirianced soldier for that matter. Again, I recomend that you look up Evan Marshal's book on handgun stopping power.

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boer RE:Stopping Power 1/12/2005 4:13:29 AM

didn't knew that but aren't very heavy rounds like the .454 Casull it's 19,5 gramm and it has 1776 joules (it where just standerd 9mm 5,72 gramm jhp rounds) I got the info from this site link

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bomber RE:.223 on deer 2/2/2005 7:14:34 AM

Just to clarify a few things, Evan Marshall's books on the 9mm and it's stopping power were utterly slated. He was in bed with several big companies which had vested interests in 9mm ammunition and the weapons that fire it. He's always banged on in the shooting press about the qualities of the 9mm and in truth those who have to carry a weapon in an enviroment and have a choice of calibres go fo something like the .40 S&W. There is a massive difference between the 9mm and the .45ACP. Condsider the HK SOCOM and USP pistols. They're designed to to happily cope with the .45+P ammunition which has significantly increased kinetic energy at longer ranges...but that's not really the issue. You're not going to buy/carry pistols for long range shots or for penetrating light ballistic armour. You're carrying a pistol in military environment as a last-ditch or backup option. You are going to be shooting at 10m or less and the fight will be over very quickly. The only rule of thumb for stopping power that ever works is Chuck Taylor's TKO (Taylor Knockout Index) which is a simplified version of Jeff Cooper's rather complex formula. As for the ability to incapacitate (stopping power), consider that there are only three mechanisms that can potentially have a bearing on stopping power: 1) The Permananent cavity 2) The Temporary cavity 3) The supersonic shockwave radiating away from the impact (i've included this as some people still believe this actually dies something) Number 3 has no bearing on anything and has been proven to be a red herring. According to Dr Martin Fackler (world renoun wound ballistics expert) and Patrick Urey (Ballistics expert for the FBI at Quantico) have always said the temporary cavity (when tissue momentarily moves away from the bullet) does no damage whatsoever. This is essentially proven by ballistic armour when a soft vest defeats a round you are effectively cutting out the permanent cavity. The projectile still transfers a large chunk of energy into the human body but rarely does any damage occur. The permananent cavity is the ONLY mechnaism that can incapacitate. When designing a weapon to kill another person the only thing that acually matters is that the projectile has sufficient mass, velocity and diameter when it arrives at the target. You cannot guarentee that the projectile will penetrate a large blood bearing organ or that the enemy solder will wimp out when he receives a non-critical injury from a bullet. The only thing you can guarentee is if the projectile strikes the centre of mass that a large permanent cavity will be produced. The 5.56 and the 9mm are compromise rounds. They're easy to shoot but they're only marginally effective at short ranges. The problem as I see it si that weapon designers have been concentrating on the weapon and not the ammunition. The reason that the 5.56 SS109/M955 bullets penetrate better than a 7.62 NATO is that they have a steel forward penetrator under the jacket so it's not a fair comparison. Carrying and needing 17 to 20 round in a pistol in my my opinion is not a good idea. Look at professionals who use 9mm pistols, how do they shoot? Double-taps/Controlled pairs, that drops a glock 17's effective mag capacity fom a comfortable 17 rounds down to 8.5. Take an HK SOCOM with 12 rounds. You'll only fire these rounds singly but when the hit the target you have a far better chance of a one shot stop. One thing to remember is that Evan Marshall's book on "Stopping power" is fabricated drivel and it was proved to be just that when it was first published.

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Bigbro RE:.223 on deer - bomber 2/4/2005 12:35:13 PM

link This is my modification of TKO but I think that it was not Chuck Taylor but John Taylor who put this togehter, (African Rifles and Cartridges, John Taylor, Safari Press 1994). My modification takes into account the potential for a bullet to produce a permant wound cavity. the value that you get for a given mass of target is the minimum value needed. there are several peramitors that are not covered in the equation and if there is interest let me know and I will go into detail. Bb

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ls_freak RE:.223 on deer 2/9/2005 2:17:18 PM

I don't know much about pistol calibers, however, I do know a 9x19mm will punch through body armor while a .45 won't. For rifles, 5.56mm has more energy to a farther distance than 7.62mm, the 5.56mm can be fired in bursts effectively to longer ranges than the 7.62mm because of less reoil, and 5.56mm has better penetration. However, the 6.8 SPC has more energy and more mass than the 5.56mm, making it better than both, and the 6.5mm Grendel has even more energy, higher velocity, and better accuracy than any of the above mentioned beyond 500 meters. For sniper rifles, the 7.62mm is good enough for sniping out to 800-1000 meters, but if a 6.5mm rifle is fitted with a good scope, the 6.5mm would outperform it in terms of energy, velocity, and penetration. The .388 Lapua loses effectiveness at about 1200 meters, but is very powerful at ranges under that. The .50BMG has the best anti-material capability out to 1800+ meters, but starts to lose effectiveness at those ranges against non-material targets, plus accuracy at those ranges is starting to get questionable (M107 is listed at 2MoA, meaning at 1800m, 36" groups are fired). The .408 has greater energy and velocity than a .50 starting at around 400 meters (I think, I could be mistaken), and maintains sub-MoA accuracy out to 2500 meters (something like ruetine 24" groups at 2200 meters, while a .50 would be expected to shoot 44 inche groups).

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fitz RE:Stopping Power - Pistols 2/9/2005 4:56:19 PM

Neither 9mm nor .45 cal is especially noteworthy for stopping power in FMJ.

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Shooter RE:.223 on deer 2/10/2005 8:48:26 PM

Where did you find out that Marshals research was "drival"? When I looked into it for our unit, the statistics seemed to bear out our colective expiriance. When shooting ball, the energy of the round delivered to the target seems to be the first order function of effectiveness. As to temporary cavity being insignificant, and Martin Flaker's ideas, well lets just say that he has his agenda too. But I will absolutely gurantee that a 220 swift that only penitraits 5" will be fatal about twice as often as a .308 ball round that goes all the way threw after turning sideways and breaking in half. ( Both pieces!) I recomend that you go to the NILE site or the FBIs "Uniform Crime Statistics report for more data. Because most but not all of what you said is BS!

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