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Subject: Stopping Power
whisperz    11/17/2004 12:02:05 PM
Bottom line. 7.62mm over 5.56mm in a military rifle. (military rifle in what most soldiers in an army would use.) .45 caliber over 9mm. in a pistol cartridge.
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Yimmy    RE:Stopping Power    11/17/2004 1:04:41 PM
Er.... why? Concerning 7.62x51mm NATO vs 5.56x45mm NATO, although the 7.62mm may appear to be more the "mans rifle", it is not as effective in combat. Which round do you think has the more "stopping power" in theory? The large round which smacks into the enemy, yaws a bit, and departs the enemy out the back; or the smaller round which hits the enemy, yaws, fragments, and does not exit the enemy, and so dumping all its energy into the target? Of course, the 5.56mm round will only fragment at short range; however it should be noted that it can pierce a steal helmit at greater distance than the 7.62mm round can. With the 5.56mm round you can also carry more for the same weight, and shoot it more accurately with less recoil. Of course, 7.62mm is the better round for breaking through brick work and the likes, and the West german 7.62mm round will even fragment as if it were a 5.56mm round; buit trade offs have to be made, and on the whole the light and effective 5.56mm round is widely deemed superior for rifles. The 7.62mm round being better for medium MG's. As for 9x19mm vs .45; again, 9mm is clearly superior on the moern battle field. A weapon can carry more 9mm rounds than it can .45 rounds, the 9mm has a slightly flatter trajectory, and there are far more armour piercing rounds available which have some success. A .45 round has the flying qualities of a fridge, it will not go through much in the way of body armour.
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eon    RE:Stopping Power    11/18/2004 9:49:00 AM
I define "stopping power" as follows; if it impacts the body with a remaining energy at least 2x the average body weight of the target, it will do enough damage to shut him/her/it down. This works out to an energy of about 500 fpe, or 700J if you prefer MKS, at the receiving end. Back during WWII, the Red Army concluded that to inflict a deadly/debilitating wound required an energy of roughly 420J, or about 300 fpe. Hence, the 7.62 x 39 M1943 round was formulated to deliver this much "whomp" to the target at 300 metres, which they concluded was the farthest any soldier other than a sniper or machinegunner could be rationally expected to engage a single target, ie. an enemy soldier with IW fire. I think these two factors pretty well sum up the concept- and show that most rifle rounds, "intermediate" or otherwise, have all the power they need for the job, and that most pistol rounds (other than Magnums and such intermediate oddities as the 10mm family) are somewhat lacking in this department. I now await the screams of rage, brickbats, etc, from all quarters. eon.
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Crosshair    RE:Stopping Power    11/19/2004 3:00:42 AM
If .223 is such an effective round. (From my experience) Why do so few people hunt deer with them. If a .223 can't stop a harmless deer, how is it going to stop some guy trying to kill you. 7.62x39 is a good deer round if SP/HP rounds are used within 150 yards. In fact manny people buy SKS's because they make good brush guns, much like a 30-30. 7.62x51 will often kill the deer without it taking more than 5 steps.
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Yimmy    RE:Stopping Power    11/19/2004 8:11:30 AM
In America it is illegal to hunt dear with .223 in most states. And due to the 556 round not always fragmenting and not always causing a large wound channel, shot placement would be very important.
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eon    RE:.223 on deer   11/20/2004 3:25:14 PM
Also, since the typical .223 bullet generates its wound channel by fragmentation resulting in massive avulsion (permanent crush cavity), the result would be a good deal of meat being bloodshot and spoiled. The .223 is actually quite effective on deer-sized animals, but it's not a practical round if you like venison..
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Bigbro    RE:.223 on deer   12/4/2004 4:56:02 PM
There are several .224 bullets that do not seem to fragment much, WW 64 gr. power point, Hornady 55gr. designed for the 22-250, 60 gr. Hornady HP (I know, but this bullet performs well in a .223), Nosler partition and the Barns X bullets. Still on Mule deer it is a short range deal, under 150 to 200 yards. There may be others. The 64 gr. Power point will not open up fast enough on coyotes, they just run off. the two Hornady's will open up on the dogs so seem to be a softer. The Barnes and the Nosler are too pricy for me to be shooting dogs with them.
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Shooter    RE:.223 on deer   1/5/2005 5:38:35 PM
You are right eon. There is not much difference between 9 mm and 45 cal, UNLESS the target is whearing cheep body armor. Then SOME 9 mm rounds will go threw but no SERVICE 45 will. Again check Evan Marshall's book on "Stopping power" to get the facts.
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boer    RE:Stopping Power    1/7/2005 9:51:13 AM
the best .45acp round will have a stopping power of 572 joule, a 9mm will have 598 joule. the only problem of a 9mm is overpenetration but that problem is sovled by using jhp rounds. If you want a good pistol cartridge, but still enough rounds in a clip you must take a 10mm (it will have more penetration than a .45)
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Shooter    RE:Stopping Power    1/12/2005 12:25:58 AM
You are siting the hottest 9mm amo verses standard .45 rounds. +P .45 has >737 Joules of energy! That is modern ammo that can be fired in any modern .45 in good order. +P+ .45 or .45 SUPER as it is also known, only to be fired in specialy built guns gives 1,500 joules. Niether round is issued because recoil is to stiff for the average trainee or expirianced soldier for that matter. Again, I recomend that you look up Evan Marshal's book on handgun stopping power.
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boer    RE:Stopping Power    1/12/2005 4:13:29 AM
didn't knew that but aren't very heavy rounds like the .454 Casull it's 19,5 gramm and it has 1776 joules (it where just standerd 9mm 5,72 gramm jhp rounds) I got the info from this site
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