Why no direct-fire 60mm mortar?

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mike_golf RE:Why no direct-fire 60mm mortar? - wagner 4/19/2004 6:26:43 PM

Generally speaking you wouldn't want a direct fire "mortar". The plunging fire is one of the things that makes it valuable for close infantry support. I still wonder why we would want such a thing when the typical infantry squad carries better direct fire weapons anyhow, like the US AT-4 or the various RPG variants. All of them, for direct fire purposes, are superior to a 60mm weapon. I'm puzzled.

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Sam If you really have to 4/19/2004 8:25:15 PM

But like Mike-Golf, I cannot think of why you would need to. The USMC company level 60mm mortar, M224, can be trigger fired in the hand held mode. Not sure if the US Army has them or not. Believe we got it from the brits. I think I would call a SMAW gunner up, thats his job. And he will do it with one round vice however many to takes for a direct fire mortar to do it in. The 9mm spotting rifle and the ability to mount the PVS-4 means 24 hr capability and first round accuracy that you won't get with a mortar. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

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airborne! RE:If you really have to 5/23/2005 5:25:28 PM

Trigger fire mode is for a quick reaction indirect fire if the company is in movement. Since you can see what your shooting at, you can adjust your own rounds, increasing the speed of getting suppresive fire on target. NOT USED FOR POINT TARGETS! There is a shaped charge armed guided 60mm round being developed however. This would be for defilade targets, someone would act as an FO with a laser designator, or for any target where you do not want to give away your position with a direct fire system. I am fairly sure the guided round load carry would be limited. Reed

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doggtag RE:If you really have to 5/24/2005 7:54:20 PM

If you can make all the 60mm guided rounds have the same lethality of "standard" ammo, then unless you are firing at masses of troops in the open with airbirst-fuzed rounds, then you might as well make ALL your rounds the PGM type. Since you suddenly have the pinpoint precision, you no longer have to waste spotting rounds to lead into your target. Besides, a lightweight AFV (think, modern equivalent of the M8 Stuart 75mm howitzer carriage) carrying a direct-fire-capable single- or twin-barrel 60mm system, carrying 60-90 rounds (or more if needed or space allows), could engage PRECISELY 60-90 targets, rather than expending several rounds (including misses) to destroy any single target. Ideal for plinking trucks, light AFVs, logistics vehicles, the occassional fortified fighting position, even shooting at possible IEDs that your little UAV has spotted several hundred yards up the road ahead of your convoy. Besides, one 60mm airburst precisely over the heads of a group of RPG fanatics will be all it takes to end that quickly. Plus, you outrange their RPGs, and could even pose serious threat to ATGM teams that your UAV's thermal viewer picks up. Warfare definitely ain't gonna be what it used to be.

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MadRat Recoil 5/24/2005 11:34:02 PM

The recoil of a 60mm would make it difficult to aim at a precise target. They had 37mm recoilless rifles in Vietnam that did offer a good bang for the buck. What is wrong with the modernized 25mm versions of rifle-mounted grenade launchers?

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ambush RE:If you really have to 6/3/2005 10:03:19 PM

>>The USMC company level 60mm mortar, M224, can be trigger fired in the hand held mode. Not sure if the US Army has them or not. Believe we got it from the brits.<< Actually the excellent M224 is a US design used by the UK. I hear the SAS is particularly fond of it. Our M252 81mm mortar is a version of the UK's equally excellent L16. The US uses a different sight and made some improvements to the ammuntion. Both these weapons are vast improvements (particularly if you ever had to hump them) over the old M-2/M-19 and M-29. Direct (direct lay) firing use to be part of the training for a mortar crew. There is also a handle on the M224 which makes this easier without the bipod. Of course there are better weapons for use in a direct fire roll, although they need to bring back the M40, 106mmm Recoiless Rifle, but this is just one more tool for you to use if you have to. It is true that mortars have become more complex with recoil systems etc but they still have important differences from other artillery. Normally mortars are going to give you a higher rate of fire, this becomes less true with mortars over 120mm. Mortars are stil more tactically mobile than most other artillery. Mortars also are capable of higher angle fire. As an example in the mountains of Afghanistan were the enemy was often close but above the max gun elevation of the 105s but not the mortars.

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maarten221 10/30/2006 5:36:41 PM

South Africa used the Eland Mk7 (reverse engineered panhard) and the Ratel 60 during the war against Cuba in Angola. They were very effective against buildings, light armor and infantry. The Ratel 90 had a low velocity gun, and I beleive that there was a variant with a recoilless gun, but I can't find any information on it, so I may be mistaken.
There were some Ratels with a conventional 80mm mortar mounted in the cargo/troop compartment with a hatch above it. I don't remember seeing a lot of them around.

Regards
221

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Rasputin 10/31/2006 10:12:46 PM

Interesting thought to be able to combine a mortar that has a direct fire gun capabilities. I always thought the RPG rocket ressembled a motar shell in appearance, but the RPG is a rocket. And the motar depends on powder charge, motar rings, and a rifled tube to lob the shell with a high 45 degree type tragectory.

But if you were to use the motar for direct fire, it is not like a recoiless gun, as stated the recoiless gun would totally defeat the purpose of the motar as artillery. So even if it works, it is not going to be fired by some Rambo firing it over his shoulder, you have to have some huge sturdy mount to hold the mortar. In such a case, you might as well consider an artillery piece instead.

However there has been a one off experimental mortar gun that was made, called a mortar shilegah, don't know if it can be considered a true mortar. The barrel was extremely short, and thus holes were cut throughout the entire diamenter of the gun barrel. The muzzle blast from firing would be redirected 180 degrees back to the front, when ever the mortar was fired. The principal seemed to work, but was not employed, it was designed to be put on the M60 tanks.

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