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Subject: The truth about the 5.56mm round
TriggaFingaz    1/24/2004 1:51:19 PM
To all infantrymen and gunusers out there , tell me this: is the 5.56x45mm round an effective round or is it so weak that you need more than one shot to drop a man? Some books say that it is absolutely lethal, able to stop one's heart owing to sheer velocity. Other accounts claim that enemy soldiers hit with this round continue charging. Some books claim it will tumble and dig multiple wound channels in the body, detractors claim it drills straight though people but yet has poor anti-material penetration. Which is more accurate? Please specify whether you used M193 or M855 'green tips'.
 
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Kozzy    RE:The truth about the 5.56mm round, DELTA complaints and Somalia   3/3/2004 6:17:29 PM
In combat the adreniline is pumping hard and a fanatical person may not even feel getting shot, despite the caliber of the bullet. Only a shot to the brain or spinal column can ensure instant take down
 
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Worcester    RE:The truth about the 5.56mm round, DELTA complaints and Somalia   3/3/2004 7:05:28 PM
I will give you my "musings" and personally guarantee you that for any target, 7.62 takes it down beter than 5.56. This is from experience, not a book..
 
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ChdNorm    RE:The truth about the 5.56mm round, DELTA complaints and Somalia   3/4/2004 9:53:06 AM
I think it's important to remember that the skinnies were more often than not heavily self medicated.
 
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pluto77189    Iraqi situation   3/4/2004 12:29:17 PM
someone I know just got back from baghdad. Told me a few stories. Seems overall they didn't have much of a problem with lack of knock down power, and the accuracy of the M-4 proved more effective than the AK's. Seems the biggest problem is with the carbines, at longer ranges, where the 5.56 turns into a 22. The carbines lack muzzel velocity, and at more than a 100 or so yards, the things simply don't have any power. One instance was with some special ops sneaking up on some iraqis that were setting up some IED's. They shot them up like crazy, but one guy drove away. They found him dead from his wounds at a hospital(he drove himself) with over 50 SS109's in him. At close range, they tend to got right through you, not knocking you donw. At long range, witht he short barreled carbines, they dopn't even go through you! If 3 rounds of 5.56 are needed to "make sure", and only 1-2 rounds 6.8 will, wouldn't the smaller amount (25 instead of 30)be a non-issue?
 
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Ehran    5.56 ap   3/7/2004 10:15:01 AM
watched an interesting vid some years ago where they tried out various hollywood myths and gave them the old reality test. one of the things they did was test various 556 ap rounds vs a quarter inch mild steel plate at ten meters. tried a couple rounds from over a dozen manufacturers world wide. virtually all of them simply bounced off the plate without even marking it. the two french ap rounds left little dents and the israeli ap rounds lodged in the plate with about half the bullet protruding from the back. then the shooter hauled out his trusty FN and put a single round of jhp into the plate. next problem was to find the plate as it was torn off the post by the impact. when they found it in the grass behind the post the shooter was able to put his finger through the hole made by the jhp round. if i was going to war give me 7.62 any day of the week.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Iraqi situation   3/7/2004 11:44:49 AM
>>If 3 rounds of 5.56 are needed to "make sure", and only 1-2 rounds 6.8 will, wouldn't the smaller amount (25 instead of 30)be a non-issue << No, it's still a trade off. 5.56mm may kill the target with one hit -- and the odds may get better with 6.8mm, and may get better still with 7.62mm, but there still may be a need to repeat. On the other hand, the chance of hitting the target, per round fired, is unlikely to change from round to round, assuming the same basic weapons system is used (i.e. an XM8 in 5.56mm versus an XM8 in 6.8mm). So the question is, does the increased % chance of knocking down the target compensate fro the reduced number of chances to hit the target stemming from the reduced basic ammunition load. We may be at a phase, technologically speaking, where the trade off makes very good sense. The profusion of close-combat and magnifying optics on modern weapons boosts likelihood of hitting the target, which downplays the important of the extra # of potential hits against enemy targets provided by 5.56mm.
 
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pluto77189    RE:5.56 ap   3/8/2004 7:07:49 AM
I actually have quite a bit of personal experience with the SS-109's, the 5.56 bullet with the steel penetrator. It's a 60-something grain bullet, copper jacketed. The front portion is hardened steel, the rear "boat tail" part is lead jacketed. It's basically the NATO 5.56 round. It will pierce a good deal of steel at 100 yards. We've shot up several things with it, at close range and 100 yards. There was a thick sttel plate at the range, and the bullets would take out a nice chunk of metal. at close range(50 -100 feet), we've shot at an old trailer hitch, that was I guess 3/4 inch thick steel. It ALMOST went through. We've shot up an old lawn mower, and it has no problem with the engine--pretty fun. When you hit a cinder block with the 5.56, it crumbles, cracks, etc. When we hit it with the FAL, well, there is just cinders left. I can see the reason we use the 5.56. If I had to choose a round to hit someone with, I'd choose the 7.62. I don';t think anyone has much of a chance after being hit ANYWHERE with that round... However, if I found myself in a shootout, I would choose the 5.56 over the 308, despite the incredible knockdown power. This even takes into consideration carrying the same amount of rounds-we've got 30 rd. mags for both--it's almost BETTER to go through loopholes around the AWB than to let it die. The reason? precision. While on a shot for shot basis, one at a time, I can hit a dinner plat size target almost any time with either weapon. However, witht he 5.56, I can do 10 rounds in 5 seconds on the same target--a hit it every time. The dramatic lack of recoil helps in a quick-fire fight. I think the 6.8 is supposed to be similar, but the 308, however nice it is, cannot be fired at fast for the smae amount of accuracy. What we NEED to do is simply use frangible ammunition. Seriously, we ARE trying to kill the people we shoot at, aren't we? Wouldn't they rather die quickly of horrific trauma than slowly of blood loss or infection?!?
 
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Ehran    RE:5.56 ap   3/9/2004 3:19:51 PM
interesting though it shouldn't take chunks out of the steel plate. perhaps its cast iron or low grade cast steel? i believe the vid predated the ss109 rounds btw. the mower engine could have been an aluminum block if not it would have been cast iron either of which is pretty soft.
 
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pluto77189    RE:5.56 ap   3/10/2004 7:35:09 AM
well, whatever they make trailer hitches out of, it'll take chunks out of it. The engine of the lawnmower WAS aluminum, no doubt about that. Goes through it like butter... The interesting thing was when we set upp a half dozen WET phone books, and shot through them. It kinda gives you the performance of ballistic gelitin, as it's wet, but the shape is retained. In other words, if you flip through the pages, you can see a perfect outline of the bullet as it passed through. The Ball ammo fragmented completly, not passing all the way through more than a few books, but it would shred the first two up REALLY bad. The SS109's(which we have cut open to examine) perform much differently. The front is a hard steel penetrator, the real lead, in a full metal jacket of copper. Well, they go through the first phone book without fragmenting--as they should, hell they're steel not lead. But, they start to tumble pretty quickly, as the bullet slows down. You can see the PERFECT outline of the bullet IN PROFILE, in the second , third, fourth phone book. This produces a decent wound channel, all the way through the books, about an inch wide, and 5.56mm across. We were able to recover almost all of the ss109's in the pages of the phone books, while most of them had been bent at the middle(where the lead meets the steel), most remained intact, and NONE of the bullets showed ANY fragmentation in the steel section. We even fired some through the aluminum engine block, into the books, and they were just as pristene.
 
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Ehran    RE:5.56 ap   3/10/2004 2:11:00 PM
about how thick were the phone books? a friend of mine tested his 5.56 vs old sandbags and found them unable to penetrate the bags. he was getting 6-7 inch penetration into a settled sandbag. interestingly enough his 80 lb hunting bow put 8 inches of broadhead hunting arrow through the bag.
 
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