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Subject: 7.62x35
SYSOP    7/8/2015 5:37:14 AM
 
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trenchsol       7/8/2015 8:10:57 AM
It is much better known as .300 Blackout. There are both, subsonic and supersonic variant. Supersonic variant seems to have performance similar to 7.62x39mm.
 
 
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Yimmy       7/8/2015 9:46:55 AM
Seems a step in the wrong direction to me.  Less capable than both 556 and 762 NATO at distance and for dealing with enemy wearing personal protection of vehicles etc.
 
People need to stop dreaming about the magic "one round kill" bullets; unless we bring back .80 musket balls.  And mid-calibre rounds like 6.5-6.8mm cannot replace both 556 Individual Weapons and 762 GPMGs.
 
This stuff to me just sounds like a fad.  More so when its conducted by small military communities who think they are special and different.  More symbolic than practical.
 
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Yimmy       7/8/2015 9:50:15 AM
Sorry, tht should be 'personal protection' or 'armoured/soft skinned vehicles'
 
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Tamerlane    Every week   7/8/2015 9:50:35 AM
there is a new cartridge.  I helped buy billions of ordnance worth for the gubmint.  While a subsonic 5.56 sure ani't gonna be too effective, there are whole lotsa other routes than to keep getting into new rounds.  I wrote a white paper RE: adopting .338 Lapua versus whatever (usually .300 Win Mag).  Though the .338 would have meant a few dozen (maybe) more dead bad guys (we were in Afghan shooting peak to peak) the added cost of introducing new dies, powder, range, etc tables, training, logistics train...were just not worth it.  Why not a 7.80?  It hits harder than a 7.62.  Why not a 6.5 instead of 7.62?  It has a better ballistics coefficient.  Most of the stuff just benefits some "innovator" and it is a good thing that the U.S. has been conservative about jumping to new cartridges.  The best ROI is to develop new bullet and case materials, until we can develop barrels that can handle 80K PSI...and who would want to shoot that bitch?       
 
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Tamerlane    Every week   7/8/2015 10:01:27 AM
there is a new cartridge.  I helped buy billions of ordnance worth for the gubmint.  While a subsonic 5.56 sure ani't gonna be too effective, there are whole lotsa other routes than to keep getting into new rounds.  I wrote a white paper RE: adopting .338 Lapua versus whatever (usually .300 Win Mag).  Though the .338 would have meant a few dozen (maybe) more dead bad guys (we were in Afghan shooting peak to peak) the added cost of introducing new dies, powder, range, etc tables, training, logistics train...were just not worth it.  Why not a 7.80?  It hits harder than a 7.62.  Why not a 6.5 instead of 7.62?  It has a better ballistics coefficient.  Most of the stuff just benefits some "innovator" and it is a good thing that the U.S. has been conservative about jumping to new cartridges.  The best ROI is to develop new bullet and case materials, until we can develop barrels that can handle 80K PSI...and who would want to shoot that bitch?       
 
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JFKY    7.62 X 35   7/8/2015 10:35:34 AM
Seems a very specialized round. From what I just cursorily gleaned, it is designed to provide ?7.62 mm punch? at 300 metres range. It is NOT designed to perform better than 5.56 mm at all ranges. So this is NOT a replacement for the 5.56 mm X 45 mm cartridge. Not sure if the Dutch Marines even intend for it to be such, it is very likely that it is being purchased for that very purpose, ?Heavy, short-range punch??..for ship board/urban close quarters combat.
 
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trenchsol       7/8/2015 1:04:19 PM
Subsonic variant might be useful, perhaps.
 
 
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Docduracoat    All about suppressors   7/8/2015 2:35:08 PM
The .300 blackout has been all about getting a " manly" 7.62 (30 cal ) round in the AR 15 Americans have always liked the 30 caliber ever since the days of lever action .30-30 caliber cowboy rifles. The AR .223(5.56) caliber round has gotten a lot of hate in gun circles because of its small caliber. There have been many attempts to stuff a 7.62 size bullet in the AR envelope. The .308 (7.62 x 51) has achieved a lot of popularity for designated marksmen and hunting. The M110/SR25 looks like any other black rifle from a distance, so the enemy does not target the man carrying the long range rifle. The 7.62 x 51 cartridge is too long to fit into the magazine well of a standard .223(5.56 x 45) carbine, so you need to buy an entire rifle. It is definitely a harder hitting, longer range round. All the reasons for issuing assault rifles ( lighter ammo, more rounds per pound carried, short range urban combat) preclude every grunt being issued a .308 long range rifle. 7.63 x 39 as used in the AK 47 has also been tried in AR type rifles. You do need a different upper half, but 5 AK cartridges will fit in an AR magazine. Specially designed 7.62 x 39 magazines have been developed that fit in the standard AR mag well. They have even manufactured AR rifles that accept AK 47 magazines! The latest one is even called " the mutant". These all suffer from the shortcoming of the AK 47 round- rainbow trajectory, shorter range, less accuracy. There are also very few subsonic loadings available for AK type ammo. We can debate all day about the range and accuracy needed from an assault rifle, but these are the reasons holding back acceptance of 7.62 x 39 caliber AR type rifles. The 7.62 x 35 (300 blackout) is the latest attempt to get the .30 caliber into the AR. It has achieved some popularity due to the current craze among civilian gunners for suppressors. Subsonic loads available for this caliber suppress very well, and the ammo fits into a standard AR magazine in a standard lower receiver. It has the same energy, trajectory and range as the 7.62 x 39 round. I predict that 300 blackout will never be adopted by any major military. Everything it can do can be done better by subsonic suppressed cartridges already in inventory. For a light, handy, suppressed, short carbine that a Marine would use inside of an enemy ship, there is the 9 mm H and K submachine gun or even a 9 mm AR type carbine. For a harder hitting longer range than a 9mm, a short barreled suppressed AR in 5.56 x 45 is already available. In this time of declining military budgets in the US, there is a zero chance of any new caliber getting introduced here.
 
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UpChuck.Liberals       7/8/2015 11:09:04 PM
Just a couple of little details.  5.56  55gr Std. NATO round  7.62 x 35  120 - 150 gr.  100% burn in a 8" barrel so less flash.  You DO NOT need a different upper, just swap out the barrel and you're off and running.  Before you start bad mouthing the reach out and touch someone capabilities, watch the guy on youtube using a red dot to ring the gong  wayyyyyy the heck out there, like 1000 yards, if that isn't good enough then I give up.  I can't tell the difference when shooting a 5.56 vs a 300, if anything there is less muzzle rise with a 16" barrel and it's a bit quieter (perceived not measured).  A few have complained about issues with the buffer, but odds are it was a marginal setup to begin with.  Do I hope our troops get to use this thing, heck yes, it makes bigger holes and it'll get the price of ammo lower.  Speaking of ammo, 300 is currently .20/rnd more expensive than 5.56 std.  
 
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Batou    More symbolic than practical.   7/9/2015 1:56:55 AM
I think the Dutch Mil have an eye towards the future where it is not about Military Projection but more about internal civil control. You know targetting the sort of targets waving protest flags and banners rather than wearing body armour or showing up in an APC. On every front (except China)- military forces are pulling back and starting to become inwarding looking. 
 
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