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Subject: Russia Cannot Afford A Better AK
SYSOP    5/19/2015 5:46:02 AM
 
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davebarnes    Erratum   5/19/2015 8:16:01 AM
"The AK-12 has picatinny rails"
Picatinny is a proper noun. 
 
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trenchsol       5/19/2015 9:56:30 AM
Many, perhaps majority of Russian soldiers are conscripts. What is the point of having much more accurate rifle if guy can't aim it properly ? Some people are 'natural' but most need a lot of training and practice to acquire marksmanship skills.
 
It is, probably, a decision not as bad as it sounds.
 
 
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keffler25       5/19/2015 10:10:13 AM
I am dubious about that piece of work but I am not an expert.  
 
I would like to read educated opinions to see if that rifle might be as awkward to use as its appearance to suggest? 
 
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joe6pack       5/19/2015 11:06:26 AM
Apparently Vlad approves.. and apparently the KGB wasn't big on gun safety.. or proper weapons handling (particularly one with a magazine in it...).. if you note were Vlad's fingers are.
 
 At first glance.. nothing glares out at me as a major issue.  Big things like front and rear sights seem ok..  In general, I don't know that I particularly like the stock (at least from photos) and I've never been a fan of the bigger is better magazines.. spring issues lead to feed problems.. troops mangle larger magazines.. etc.. etc..
 
Trench - You can teach a conscript to shoot reasonably well in a relatively short period of time.. the issue is paying for the rounds, ranges and competent instructors....  Many armies that go with conscription.. just don't fund the fundamentals... which gives conscripts a worse reputation.. through no real fault of the troops.  (my 2 cents)
 
I'd do away with the fully automatic option that the Russians seem to love.. but I suppose don't prompt your enemies to fix their mistakes.. so good job.. keep up the fully automatic rifle thing.. works great
 
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keffler25       5/19/2015 11:16:43 AM
"Apparently  Vlad  approves." 
 
You have a fine sense of sarcasm, J6P. Apparently Vlad loved the off-shore money laundering side show that  Izhmash's former owners had (what happened to them?), as much as the rifle. This is the Ukrainian steel mills and oil and gas fields all over again, isn't it?      
 
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Tamerlane    Keff:   5/19/2015 12:15:57 PM
I useter work for FSTC and a few other places.  I spent a lot of tax $ on ammo for one of our services testing ammo...etc.  The AK12 IMO should not have dropped the huge safety/fire selector/dust cover, that was a peach.  The sight radius is longer.  This radically improves accuracy.  The same old, dorky mag catch/release is still used.  The barrel quick change is the most salient new feature but not worth the $ at all.  Who gives a crap if you can sw between 6.5/5.56/7.62/.300 Weatherby whatever?  I can't believe the Russ, who are usually pretty prudent with small arms, went for such idiocy.  Maybe Vlad the Idiot intervened.  Basically, same old Miss Piggy with new makeup.  Don't get me wrong, if I had to fight without support for the rest of my life in the boonies, I'd go AK, but it would be a good old AK"S."
 
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trenchsol       5/19/2015 1:13:47 PM
You need them, conscripts, to fire a lot of rounds. How often they will practice, it depends on the schedule. Yes, if the costs are the problem, they might not practice enough. If they practice, they could wear down older rifles, rather than new ones.
 
Accuracy is not the only benefit that new rifles offer. There is an ability to mount accessories. Those accessories are not issued to conscripts very often.
 
It makes sense to let conscripts use older rifles, because they tend to abuse them. They could drop them on the floor, for example. It happens. No rifle, no matter how sturdy it might be, doesn't take it 'kindly'. If and when they get mobilized, they would have to use rifle different from one they trained with anyway, most likely.
 
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JFKY    Going with j6p here   5/19/2015 1:18:44 PM
Conscript=/= bad shot.....
 
You get to be a "good shot" by shooting.....if you spend 12-14 days on a range zeroing & firing you can be a proficient shot, whether you got drafted by "Uncle Sugar/Uncle Vlad" or you volunteered to serve your country.  Follow-up frequently to maintain your proficiency.
 
People, today, think "conscript" means "army on the cheap"...it just means you don't pay a market rate for your personnel...yes generally if you are too cheap to pay a decent wage you are too cheap to spring for much else, either, but the one doesn't AUTOMATICALLY follow from the other.
 
Conscript means your group needs every swinging D!ck it an muster & doesn't have spare resources to spend on pay...but the conscripts may be motivated & accept their conscription, q.v. Western Allies or Red Army 1941-45....the extra resources can go to training & weapons....
 
It's just that post-WWII most people employing conscripts weren't engaged in a "Great Crusade" to rid the world of F@scism & were trying to fight a war on the cheap...
 
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trenchsol       5/19/2015 2:11:42 PM
My point is even if you have "good" conscripts, it makes sense to give them older AK-74 instead of new AK-12, at least while they are in the process of training. I am not trying to say anything else. If you want to argue about "good" and "bad" conscripts, you will need to find another sparring partner. Sorry.
 
 
 
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Yimmy       5/19/2015 4:03:11 PM
There is no such thing as a good conscript, unless somehow the contract is more attractive than a volunteer soldier.  The conscript has to be willing.
 
If the conscript is willing to serve, then they can become just as good a shot as anyone else.  Good NCOs and resources are obviously required.  Deploying to war with weapons you are unfamiliar with clearly isn't ideal.  But, this isn't just a problem with conscript armies.  In Afghanistan I frequently operated with LAW 66mm; I have never fired one.
 
Professional volunteers don't want people who don't want to be there to be there.
 
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