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Subject: USAF seeks tenders to build composite cargo X-plane
reefdiver    3/14/2007 1:40:30 PM
So the USAF is looking at a new cargo aircraft again. Does anyone think it will get built? I think its not a bad idea - a composite C-130, C-17, or the new design, but in these days of budget constraints it would seem wiser to do what it takes to keep the C-17 anc C-130J lines running and work on incremental mods.
 
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scuttlebut steve       3/14/2007 5:50:50 PM
There probably wont be anything new for a good long while other than continued purchases of C-130j and C-130j-30, C-17 upgrades, and C-5 upgrades.  If lockheed ever gets some of those box-wing tanker proposals off the ground it could translate into a new C-5 replacement in the next decade...maybe.  If they can get it to work, the boeing pelican concept might result in some super heavy transoceanic transport buys in 10-15 years.  It would be pretty cool to have an aircraft that can transport 17 M1a2's accross the ocean with a relatively low operating costs, or as a mother ship to a fleet of UCAVs.
 
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reefdiver       3/15/2007 10:59:17 AM
I noticed some brand new news about the Boeing BWB.  This apparently keeps moving along. On the other hand the BWB  doesn't appear to be an aircraft for forward deployment to strips that the C-130 and C-17 can use, so I doubt it would be applicable to the USAF request.
 
As for the composite aircraft - I note the C-17 has already received a composite components - such as the horizontal stabilizer. Perhaps with Boeings experience with the 787 they could start incrementally replacing components of on new build C-17 models until they have a completely composite aircraft  - proceed to the vertical stab and rudder,  maybe alierons and flaps, then complete wings, and finally the body. Its interesting to me that the USAF wants to investigate a composite cargo aircraft at a time that Boeing will be the only aircraft company with experience building a large composite aircraft. If they'd specified composite for the tanker competition - Boeing would be a shoe-in with the 787.
 
The C-17 issue is of course coming to a critical point with Boeing slowly shutting down its line of suppliers and saying the line will be shut down completely without some new major commitment.  At that point, the USAF will probably be forced to create a new aircraft. There is not much time for C-17 decisions.
 
 
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scuttlebut steve       3/16/2007 12:45:39 AM
In my post about box winged transports I meant them to be a replacement eventually for the C-5.  I believe that the air mobility command will always retain a very large aircraft that can carry more than C-17s but has no STOL type performance requirements
 
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reefdiver       3/17/2007 4:32:14 PM

In my post about box winged transports I meant them to be a replacement eventually for the C-5.  I believe that the air mobility command will always retain a very large aircraft that can carry more than C-17s but has no STOL type performance requirements


I would think something like the Pelican would and incredible addition, but what do you think the odds are that the USAF will risk building it?  On the other hand, the Pelican may be a Navy aircraft as its a low-altitude WIG aircraft and can land on water. The Navy's already into large capacity hauling.   At the moment however no one seems to be seriously considering a replacement for the C-5. Quite a pity actually.
 
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scuttlebut steve       3/17/2007 6:51:56 PM
the pelican isnt a sea boat, and cant float in water.  It is designed to come up to higher altituded and land on conventional runways to land, which is a bonus because it is easier to lengthen/straighten runways than it is to offload combat stores in a port that has to be heavily modified for operations with a 500 ft flying boat, not to mention that it requires the load to be driven, taken on rail, or flown by smaller aircraft from the port in order to get inland.
 
One thing that might make the pelican more cost effective is that other than the size, it is based on proven, fairly low tech concepts and it could be adapted for use for other roles with modular packages loaded into the cargo spaces, and promises significantly better fuel economy for the amount of cargo vs other heavylifters, and can enable the military to build up armored divisions oversees several times faster than is currently possible.
 
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reefdiver       3/18/2007 3:27:34 PM
Thanks for the correction - I was getting mixed up with the proposed Beriev 1000 ton amphib wig- which is certainly worth looking at, but there's even less info on it available than the Pelican - although here's a pic of a model. Apparently they're conceptualizing up a 2500ton amphib.
http://www.uscc.gov/assets/hearingphotos/chinamoscowairshow_files/image004.jpg" width=360 vspace=1 v:shapes="_x0000_i1026">
 
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hybrid       3/18/2007 4:01:14 PM

the pelican isnt a sea boat, and cant float in water.  It is designed to come up to higher altituded and land on conventional runways to land, which is a bonus because it is easier to lengthen/straighten runways than it is to offload combat stores in a port that has to be heavily modified for operations with a 500 ft flying boat, not to mention that it requires the load to be driven, taken on rail, or flown by smaller aircraft from the port in order to get inland.

 

One thing that might make the pelican more cost effective is that other than the size, it is based on proven, fairly low tech concepts and it could be adapted for use for other roles with modular packages loaded into the cargo spaces, and promises significantly better fuel economy for the amount of cargo vs other heavylifters, and can enable the military to build up armored divisions oversees several times faster than is currently possible.


The problem with the Pelican is the way it flies which not only makes it very efficient but also makes it a difficult project. To gain its efficiency via WIG the plane has to fly at 50 ft or so above the water. This means that flight software has to constantly monitor the planes performance at all times in order to make sure it doesn't crash into the water itself but also doesn't fly too high to lose the WIG performance boost. Mind you the plane is conceptualized to also fly normally but loses most of its range and payload capability flying that way. Me personally I believe the BWB will be the next heavy cargo plane for the USAF or the EKIP project may create a breakthrough plane that can carry similar loads to either the BWB or the Pelican.
 
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hybrid       3/18/2007 4:12:39 PM

the pelican isnt a sea boat, and cant float in water.  It is designed to come up to higher altituded and land on conventional runways to land, which is a bonus because it is easier to lengthen/straighten runways than it is to offload combat stores in a port that has to be heavily modified for operations with a 500 ft flying boat, not to mention that it requires the load to be driven, taken on rail, or flown by smaller aircraft from the port in order to get inland.

 

One thing that might make the pelican more cost effective is that other than the size, it is based on proven, fairly low tech concepts and it could be adapted for use for other roles with modular packages loaded into the cargo spaces, and promises significantly better fuel economy for the amount of cargo vs other heavylifters, and can enable the military to build up armored divisions oversees several times faster than is currently possible.


The problem with the Pelican is the way it flies which not only makes it very efficient but also makes it a difficult project. To gain its efficiency via WIG the plane has to fly at 50 ft or so above the water. This means that flight software has to constantly monitor the planes performance at all times in order to make sure it doesn't crash into the water itself but also doesn't fly too high to lose the WIG performance boost. Mind you the plane is conceptualized to also fly normally but loses most of its range and payload capability flying that way. Me personally I believe the BWB will be the next heavy cargo plane for the USAF or the EKIP project may create a breakthrough plane that can carry similar loads to either the BWB or the Pelican.
 
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reefdiver       3/18/2007 10:44:24 PM



The problem with the Pelican is the way it flies which not only makes it very efficient but also makes it a difficult project. To gain its efficiency via WIG the plane has to fly at 50 ft or so above the water. This means that flight software has to constantly monitor the planes performance at all times in order to make sure it doesn't crash into the water itself but also doesn't fly too high to lose the WIG performance boost. Mind you the plane is conceptualized to also fly normally but loses most of its range and payload capability flying that way. Me personally I believe the BWB will be the next heavy cargo plane for the USAF or the EKIP project may create a breakthrough plane that can carry similar loads to either the BWB or the Pelican.

   Do you believe the US would license the EKIP technology?  I'm not so certain.  I'm not so certain the USAF will even build the BWB given budget constraints over the forseeable future.  My personal opinion is that something like a composite C-17 is more likely.  Boeing's getting all that experience with the 787 that can be put to good use. A tubular composite hull is considerably easier to build than the BWB's body. I don't believe they'll attempt a C-5 replacement.
 
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reefdiver       3/18/2007 11:46:59 PM
There is of course my own photoshopped proposal for a C-5 replacement - to essentially be a double C-17 to be built on the C-17 line. Won't have the diameter of the C-5 but should do at least 150 tons. Won't have the fuel efficiency of a BWB either but you could get newer more efficient engines than the C-17 has and probably get by with 4. Of course I obviously had nothing to do for the last hour.


 
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