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Subject: Buy a bunch of AN-124's
reefdiver    4/4/2006 10:10:39 PM
Now that I've got gf0012-aust yelling something about POS... My proposal is that the US buy $10billion or so (maybe $20b) worth of AN-124's from Russia in exchange for various concessions and promises from Russia to stop selling to Iran. It might take more - maybe Australia could buy a couple (just kidding...). Outfitted with western engines and some avionics the cost each will be $300+million. $10 billion should buy at around 30 of these. Basically its a political purchase/payoff where at least something is received for the money paid out. Built and purchased over 5+ years, there would be some incentive for abide by an agreement. And hey - they've ONLY had 5 hull losses, vs 6 (now) for the C-5A.... (see: link )
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   4/4/2006 10:54:33 PM
AN-124? you've got to be delerious.... ;) I'd get into a fairchild provider before I got into an ANT-124.... there's no way that you'd get our troops back into 124's, they've seen what they're like. now if you gave the 124 to the french, israelis or americans and let them rebuild them - then you'd have a chance.
 
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fullamongo    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   5/18/2006 2:43:39 PM
they're built in the Ukraine.
 
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giblets    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   5/20/2006 8:05:32 AM
Think the engine could be the most i,mportant part, the D-18's on the An-124 are about 51,500lbs, with a SFC of 0.36 (ib/ibf/hr), if you change that to something similar, such as the CF6-80, with 57,000lbs, you can drop that to about 0.32, along with better maintenance.
 
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reefdiver    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   5/21/2006 11:34:10 PM
There now are any number of GE/PW or RR engines that should work on the AN-124. You can probably upgrade to western glass pits as well. To me, the most important parts of such this suggestion are the political implications, although it should help airlift capacity as well (althought I realize -Aust will disagree...)
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   5/21/2006 11:43:17 PM
"(althought I realize -Aust will disagree...) " nope - I always thought that the Ukrainians should have tried partnering with the Israelis, French, Brits in modifying these planes. the Ukrainians and Russians have always had a somewhat cavalier attitude to quality control IMV - and a lot of the fears about shonky work could have been nipped in the bud early on. poor workmanship is almost a signature reference point when talking about their gear - irrespective of how unfair that may be across the board. besides, Oz has C-17's on order, so no more money is going to Dnepr now.. ;)
 
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Thomas3    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's gf0012-aust    5/22/2006 2:16:23 PM
So you basically think it is a good idea, provided you put other engines on them - and replace the fuselage - and furnice the most basic electronics???
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's gf0012-aust    5/22/2006 6:57:36 PM
"So you basically think it is a good idea, provided you put other engines on them - and replace the fuselage - and furnice the most basic electronics???" I think there is benefit in:
  • re-engine
  • re-harness with US milspec or Euro milspec rated cables and connectors. I'm not sure they need the fuselage modified at all as a re-engine would not require significant structural mods outside of additional bracing once an engineer had worked out where additional and new persistent loads were being generated. I don't think that there's anything wrong with the basic flight controls/electronics. Its the actual harness elements that would worry me.
    		•
     
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    Thomas3    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's gf0012-aust    5/23/2006 1:32:50 PM
    Are we not basically talking: Start with a clean sheet of paper??? I mean the wiring is what's keeping the thing together, isn't it?
     
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    giblets    Unit costs, lifespan etc   5/28/2006 11:12:05 AM
    The An-124 has actually been upgraded since it was brought into service. The original AN-124 had a lifespan of just 7,500hrs (similar to when the C-5 was originally developed), however, a recent upgrade by Aviastar has meant that since 2001, all AN-124?s have a life span of 24,000hrs (6,000 cycles). This compares to 30,000 hours for the C-5 (this is stated for the wing, with the body for 80,000hrs, but not sure how that relates to the AN-124) In terms of cost, the C-17 is $160million, the C-5 Galaxy, also around the $150m mark, the An-124...$25m! According to hansard, a C-130 costs $14k an hour to operate and maintain, a AN-124 costs $23k?hr to RENT (so operating costs will be lower (having said that, that?s based on paying Ukrainian wages I am guessing!), the AFTOC reckons the true cost is $20k/hr for the C-5 and $13k/hr for the C-17 is probably more accurate When Aviastar did these modifications they changed the electronics, payload increased from 120 t to 150 t; take-off weight increased from 392 t to 420 t; flight range, including flight with cargo of 120 t, increased from 4750 km to 6500 km; aircraft service life increased up to 24000 hours; airborne equipment providing loading-unloading operations of monocargoes up to 40 t weight; digital antiskid braking system and monographite wheel brake disks; reduced crew from 6 to 4 members and increased comfort level of crew rest cabin.
     
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    gf0012-aust    RE:Unit costs, lifespan etc   6/15/2006 9:16:46 PM
    I was under the distinct impression that the AN-124 was also out of favour as the Stage 3 upgrades were continually talked about but never delivered. ipso facto, couldn't be certified and was only exempted at military airports. there was a move to make all military airports compliant with civil aviation noise requirements so it was a huuuuge issue.
     
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    gf0012-aust    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's - Thomas3   6/15/2006 9:29:14 PM
    "Are we not basically talking: Start with a clean sheet of paper??? I mean the wiring is what's keeping the thing together, isn't it?" thats true - and they are doing a complete re-harness. they are also not dealing with the Stage 3 requirements of noise abatement and FAA compliance. Antanov openly stated 2-3 years ago that they were not going to meet all of the EU compliance requirements as they deemed them unnecesary and expensive for little gain - that was seen as "code word" for "we can't afford to do it". the irony is that the noise abatement issue is the most pressing requirement for them to deal with - otherwise once all the military exclusions are removed, then they will need to abide by civil restrictions and noise requirements. thats my understanding - I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything in the last couple of years that showed that Antanov were past the abatement and noise pollution issues.
     
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    Thomas    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's - Thomas3   6/16/2006 3:26:31 PM
    One thing I've noticed: There is not a single airline that has turned a profit with Russian/Soviet civilian airliners, that in spite of them being very much cheaper. F.i. Estonian Air changed to american equipment. What is the reason for this? Why are the operating cost so much higher??? Ryan Air hasn't tried to fly out of Nowhere International airport to Nuuk (That airport is so small that it actually has a gate no 1).
     
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    Abr    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   6/27/2006 10:00:17 PM
    NATO elite force trains at Cape Verde: link "...Getting the troops and their equipment from bases in Europe and North America to Cape Verde has been a major logistical operation. NATO had to enlist the help of Russian cargo planes (they were showing An-124 on TV) to fly in equipment..." I'm curious why would they choose these "really-really bad" planes? Don't want to put some extra mileage on C-130?
     
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    gf0012-aust    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's   6/27/2006 10:13:01 PM
    "I'm curious why would they choose these "really-really bad" planes?"
  • hercs carry 5-6 times less than an Ant 124. money and logistics talk
  • Stage 3 hush requirements haven't kicked in yet - thats why they're able to fly in and out
  • starlifters have been pastured at AMARC
  • C-17's were unavailable eg, the amount of feedback that was received on the Ants-124 we leased during East Timor etc resulted in us spending money in buying C-17's - more expensive but more reliable, cheaper to maintain and logistically a less invasive nightmare for the maint people. Personally, I'd rather spend the extra money on a C-17 than park my arse in another antonov product - ever.
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    Nichevo    RE:Buy a bunch of AN-124's - gf - C-17 decision rationale   6/27/2006 11:33:39 PM
    Don't forget, lower risk of death vs. Russian a/c. But I think you get that ;>
     
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