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Procurement Discussion Board
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Subject: F-35 Fading Under Budget Pressures
SYSOP    12/2/2008 5:37:30 AM
 
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SAE       12/2/2008 11:20:57 AM
Remember, the F-22 the fighter that Strategypage.com argued was "too expensive to buy". It's flyaway cost is only around $140 million. I am old enough to remember we got the same argument with the B-1 vs. B-2 and with the F-14 vs F-18E/F. The argument goes like this the better and already developed plane is just too expensive to buy, so we need to buy the less capable and not yet developed, but cheaper airplane. However, the problem winds up being once the additional development costs are thrown in that "cheaper" plane costs more than the "most expensive plane would have if you had bought more of the than and gotten better economies of scale. It amazes me given the ridiculous tight defense budgets we have, how much we waste because of stupid procurement decisions.  
 
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arodrig6       12/2/2008 12:38:08 PM

 It amazes me given the ridiculous tight defense budgets we have, how much we waste because of stupid procurement decisions.  

Very true. A recent article in an IEEE magazine (a professional society for Electrical Engineers) had some interesting analysis of the problem and its sources: h**p://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov08/6931
 
Interesting quote: "In 2007, the GAO estimated that current programs in development were experiencing an average delay of 21 months, with a few programs nearly a decade behind schedule."

They cite a number of problems which are endemic to the system:
  - Decisions made for political reasons instead of technical reasons
  - Reliance on unproved technologies
  - Enormous complexity
  - Absurdly low cost estimates which allow too many programs to be funded
  - Too much oversight (in the form of complex and paper-work intensive criteria to be met)
  - Too little oversight (in the form of not enough skilled engineers and procurement people)
  - Procurement timelines which are overtaken by geopolitical events
 
The article also links to a previous IEEE article from 1994 which cites similar problems.
 
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JFKY    SAE   12/2/2008 1:32:27 PM
Are you trying to suggest that we should have bought MORE B-2's and MORE F-14's as opposed to buying the B-1 and F/A-18 E/F/G?  I'd like to see you in procurement land...NOT.  The B-1 has done an outstanding job in Afghanistan and Iraq.  It is No. 2 in cost per bomb delivered, the B-52 being No. 1...the B-2 is a very pricey bomb truck that is only useful, in a LO-way, in a very few and specific set of circumstances (over North Korea or the PRC).  And the F/A-18 E/F is a much better Fighter, and a decent interceptor (with AMRAAM), and a much better attack aircraft than the F-14 was....the F-14 was an Interceptor that could, in a pinch, dogfight...
 
Bottom-Line: if I understood you correctly, we'd have made very wrong procurement choices in your world, more B-2's and more F-14's, when in fact, we made the CORRECT procurement choices in the B-1 and the F/A-18 E/F...
 
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SAE       12/2/2008 3:01:35 PM

Are you trying to suggest that we should have bought MORE B-2's and MORE F-14's as opposed to buying the B-1 and F/A-18 E/F/G?  I'd like to see you in procurement land...NOT.  The B-1 has done an outstanding job in Afghanistan and Iraq.  It is No. 2 in cost per bomb delivered, the B-52 being No. 1...the B-2 is a very pricey bomb truck that is only useful, in a LO-way, in a very few and specific set of circumstances (over North Korea or the PRC).  And the F/A-18 E/F is a much better Fighter, and a decent interceptor (with AMRAAM), and a much better attack aircraft than the F-14 was....the F-14 was an Interceptor that could, in a pinch, dogfight...

 

Bottom-Line: if I understood you correctly, we'd have made very wrong procurement choices in your world, more B-2's and more F-14's, when in fact, we made the CORRECT procurement choices in the B-1 and the F/A-18 E/F...


No, you did not understand me correctly. Back in the time of Carter, North American Repulbic offered additional 100 B-1s for $10 billion. Carter declaring the B-1 bomber as "too expensive" instead went with the B-2. So, after $44 billion we got 21 additional bombers.
The F-14 was the Navy's top tier fighter, but was getting too old. But because the F-14 was "too expensive", the Navy instead of buying an improved version of the F-14 with improved engines and electronics, and keeping the two tier system of high/low cost fighters instead replaced all its fighter with a second-tier fighter, the F-18. But then the cost for the new F-18 went through the roof. Thus, the Navy wound up with an inferior second-teir fighter (slower and shorter range) that cost more per plane than the F-14 did.   
 
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JFKY    SAE   12/2/2008 3:40:35 PM
I see your point WRT the B-2/B-1 argument...we might have been better buying the 100 more B-1's...as to the F-14 F/A-18 I'm afraid you're wrong.  You're comparing apples and oranges...the F-14 is an INTERCEPTOR...designed to fly out hundreds of miles, find and engage Backfires and missiles....the F/A-18 is a multi-purpose aircraft, that with the AMRAAM can be an interceptor, can dog-fight and can deliver ordnance.  The F-14 was never in that role and never designed to fulfill that role...yes the BombCat did exist, but that was at the end of the life cycle and not a design feature...so complaining that we bought F/A-18's when we could have bought F-14's is not a reasonable complaint.  The navy wasn't buying F-14's to fulfill a multi role slot....it's like saying that we could have bought a Porsche Boxster or cross-over SUV.  They fill different roles, and it's not entirely fair to compare them...the F-14 replaced the F-4, the F/A-18 replaced the A-4/A-7 in the inventory and added the ability to engage in A2A, a net plus for the USN.
 
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JFKY    SAE   12/2/2008 3:45:12 PM
I see your point WRT the B-2/B-1 argument...we might have been better buying the 100 more B-1's...as to the F-14 F/A-18 I'm afraid you're wrong.  You're comparing apples and oranges...the F-14 is an INTERCEPTOR...designed to fly out hundreds of miles, find and engage Backfires and missiles....the F/A-18 is a multi-purpose aircraft, that with the AMRAAM can be an interceptor, can dog-fight and can deliver ordnance.  The F-14 was never in that role and never designed to fulfill that role...yes the BombCat did exist, but that was at the end of the life cycle and not a design feature...so complaining that we bought F/A-18's when we could have bought F-14's is not a reasonable complaint.  The navy wasn't buying F-14's to fulfill a multi role slot....it's like saying that we could have bought a Porsche Boxster or cross-over SUV.  They fill different roles, and it's not entirely fair to compare them...the F-14 replaced the F-4, the F/A-18 replaced the A-4/A-7 in the inventory and added the ability to engage in A2A, a net plus for the USN.
 
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flyingarty       12/2/2008 4:11:20 PM
The horrible truth is that its either buy the F-35 or build more F-22's. The only other first day of the war bird the US has in the sky is the B-2 at night.Anything else has a big bullseye for SAM's. I would rather see the F-22 do what it was made for , the F-35 filling in the other roles as needed along with the erst of the fleet, Flyingarty
 
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Whispering_Death       12/2/2008 4:39:30 PM
They tried to make one airplane do everything for everyone and they're surprised it's expensive?
 
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greyghost       12/2/2008 8:25:46 PM
  They need to dump the f-35 and just make more f-22's. They should also get more f-15e's and start getting rid of the f-16's as they age out.  F-22,f-15,and a-10's with b-1 ,b-2, because you got them.That is all they need with all the smart munitions and UAV's.
 
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Cheeze-it       12/2/2008 11:32:45 PM
The delays, and run away costs of the F-22 and F-35 are more examples of socialist engineering in industry. If boys were allowed to be boys the taxpayer would be better served with a cost efficient, and better aircraft.
 
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Cheeze-it       12/2/2008 11:37:20 PM
The delays, and run away costs of the F-22 and F-35 are more examples of socialist engineering in industry. If boys were allowed to be boys the taxpayer would be better served with a cost efficient, and better aircraft.
 
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nyetneinnon    Excellent arguments SAE   12/3/2008 1:10:03 AM
Personally, I'm in the camp to stick with more Block II SH and even seek a joint-developer for a block III (if significant capability can be justified for an acceptable, firm R&D quote), and postpone going with F-35C procurement (until final F-35 block tech can be applied to F-35C, perhaps around 2020).  So in this case I'm good with USN's current position having SH block II on hand and access to more if need be.  Ironic then, that you and I would perhaps both support SH now, instead of immediate F-35C?
 
Otherwise I totally concur with your general theme, including the post-analysis vis-a-vis B-1 vs B-2.
 
One critical, seldom emphasized argument could be made however, in favor of furthering F-22 line: a la FB-22 adaptation as competitive alternative, to an entirely new medium B-3 bomber concept slated for the 2018 stop-gap program.
 
An FB-22 could be done at perhaps a $10 billion discount alone, to a B-3 medium platform.  The FB-22 could be based at tactical bases and strike targets with much faster response time.  It could further act as long-range interceptor and in other specialized capabilities such as in: LO tactical EA jammer role.  The long-range strike capability too, could in many cases allow it to operate in a tanker-independent scenario allowing it to be even far superior than F-35A, thus enabling a truly unprecedented, over-lapping capability for far less logistical and development costs.
 
What are your thoughts?
 
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Cheeze-it       12/3/2008 2:51:32 AM
Technical and relative terms are great, but I want to see an investigation in Lockheed. When the public starts hearing major problems leaked than there's bigger problems inside.
 
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SAE       12/3/2008 3:40:10 PM
The FB-22 would be a great alternative to a B-3. However, with the Obama regime now taking power it is unlikely that a B-3 will ever come anything beyond a paper proposal, so a FB-22 will never see the light of day either. The same goes with the F-22 vs. F-35 issue. With Gates as SOD, there is not going be anymore F-22s so there is no point in arguing for more, which too bad because we needed more F-22s. As for the F-35, since we have poured so much money into developing it and we need it to replace our second-tier fighter - the F-16, we should buy it. But I doubt it will be as good an air superiority fighter as the F-22 is or that there will be thousands of them made because they are so cheap as argued by others on this blog. Especially, with it now costing as much per plane as the F-22, we will be luckly get a few hundred of them. Remember, as fewer are made the more the per unit cost goes up, so in the end they will cost more than the F-22, which is what happened with the B-2 and the F/A-18.
 
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flyingarty    F-35   12/4/2008 9:20:15 AM
Would much rather see a heavy Bomber that works one the first day of the war that doesn't coust as much as  half an Aircraft Carrier!Medium bomber? Why???? I agree with Gates! The FB-22-I like the idea alot.
 
Here is a site I like:
 
link
 
Look for the article on Meeting Anti Access- Area Denial  Challenge-its an 105 page white paper. Now I do not concur with their viewpoint about using long range missiles to overcome this threat as I think it would start a serious exchange, but I think the rest is dead on correct, Flyingarty
 
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