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Subject: The Curse Of The Gorshkov
SYSOP    11/17/2008 4:51:22 AM
 
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razputin       11/17/2008 1:45:51 PM
Has it ever occured to anyone that the situation in Russia has radically changed since the Indians first got the deal on Gorshkov and Russia may not be so willing to get rid of it or sell it to anyone anymore? Screw Indians. They will still buy our equipment. Gorshkov will begin testing in december and would be a good addition to the other aircraft carrier in the russian fleet while contruction begins on new set of aircraft carriers.
 
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Jigs       11/17/2008 4:27:59 PM
Razputin,
 
U are a true little son of some communist redhead....Try screwing us[Indians] with this deal and watch ur economy tumble...Screw us once and we will show you how much buying power we have. We dare you forget how we have fed russian kids for last 5 decades with our money....Just so you know, we are already considering getting USS Nimitz on lease if you fail to show professional ethics....Russia has no future if it has people like you in high places.
 
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Solomon2       11/17/2008 4:30:59 PM
I'm not the only one who considers the Gorshkov Affair to be a clever way for the Russians to finance the reconstruction of a warship with other peoples' money. They can simply take it for themselves once the work is all done; who will stop them?  Just look at what has happened to a lot of Western investments in Russia since the 1990s: once the factory is built, or the ore discovered and refinery built by foreigners, the Russians often undertook crooked moves to take control of the enterprise, its resources, or capital themselves. 
 
All the Russians have to do is pass some law or just make an administrative rule saying that the Indians have to file some papers by a certain time or in  a certain place or they don't get the ship, then prevent the Indians from doing just that - maybe by backdating the papers.  Or they can pass a timely law forbidding exports of Russian vessels in the cause of peace, and permitting the Russian Navy to use the ship "to keep it in shape" while untangling the resulting red tape.  The possibilities are endless, and it's an easy bet that there are plenty of people in Russia licking their chops about it all.


 
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Jigs       11/17/2008 5:17:33 PM
Solomon,
 
That is not "clever" russian way....Its "cheap" and "disgusting" Russian way....Its easy to be a jerk only if you are willing to face the consequences.
 
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ambush       11/17/2008 10:39:17 PM
 

The Admiral Gorshkov is not a good buy at $3.5 Billion. As the article points out a brand new carrier of the same size, with a complete set of blue prints can be had for $4 billion. With the current economic climate they could probably even get a better price.    In maintenance terms the Gorshkov would probably be the equivalent of the De Gaulle ? a ship of the damned.

In case anybody has not noticed there is a global economic slowdown. Many countries are in no position to maintain current levels of defense spending much less increase it. Even Russia has to reconsider it projected spending due to depressed oil prices. Add to it a new administration/congress in the US that is less defense friendly and you can expect defense contractors to be cutting some good deals due to less demand. Russian is acting like India has no other options when they have plenty.

 India could do the following:   Dump the Gorshkov they may or may not get their money back but they can buy a better. Plenty of shipyards are going to be looking for work. Of course there is time factor but realistically they may never get the Russian POS.

 They may be able to even get in on an even larger carrier. Since France looks like they are going to stick with one carrier they might get in on buying a third ship of the new British carrier class. Until that ship gets built they might buy or lease a retired LPD/LHA type ship and procure some new Harriers to give them some force projection capabilities. The money for that could come from cancelling other weapons orders with Russia.

 
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HERALD1357    Its okay to build your own.   11/17/2008 11:38:42 PM

Solomon,

 

That is not "clever" russian way....Its "cheap" and "disgusting" Russian way....Its easy to be a jerk only if you are willing to face the consequences.

You don't have to buy or lease from the two big uglies to India, those being either the Russians or the Americans.

There is Germany, Italy, France, Holland, Korea, Japan, Australia, even Britain if you need some foreign ship purchases and technical assistance. 
 
Don't let anybody cheat you or try to bully you.
 
Herald
   

 
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WarNerd       11/18/2008 2:53:34 AM

You don't have to buy or lease from the two big uglies to India, those being either the Russians or the Americans.

There is Germany, Italy, France, Holland, Korea, Japan, Australia, even Britain if you need some foreign ship purchases and technical assistance. 

The only countries on that list that have any experience designing an aircraft carrier are Britain and France.  Odds are that the first carrier designed and built by any of the others will be nothing but trouble. 
 
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HERALD1357       11/18/2008 4:22:14 AM




You don't have to buy or lease from the two big uglies to India, those being either the Russians or the Americans.



There is Germany, Italy, France, Holland, Korea, Japan, Australia, even Britain if you need some foreign ship purchases and technical assistance. 




The only countries on that list that have any experience designing an aircraft carrier are Britain and France.  Odds are that the first carrier designed and built by any of the others will be nothing but trouble. 
Incorrect. Italy has built an aircraft carrier type multi-mission ship[Cavour] for herself and is aiding India in the design and construction of her own aviation defense ship.

Japan has built more carriers than even Britain: granted that was more than sixty years ago, but she did build them. She currently has small through deck cruisers that resemble downsized Invincibles joinung her fleet [Kongos].. Hyundai shipbuilding could be about the most technologically advanced ship builder there is. A fast freighter built as a VTOL carrier is not beyond them.
 
Australia is building something like an LHA to a modified Spanish design, which could be ski-jumped. [forgot Spain, sorry]
 
Germany and Holland have some shipbuilding experience-a lot of it applicable to air defense escorts. its not just the carrier you have to build, you know. There are the bodyguard ships.
 
Herald
.
 
 
 
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Dodge_Viper       11/18/2008 9:45:52 AM

Razputin,

 

U are a true little son of some communist redhead....Try screwing us[Indians] with this deal and watch ur economy tumble...Screw us once and we will show you how much buying power we have. We dare you forget how we have fed russian kids for last 5 decades with our money....Just so you know, we are already considering getting USS Nimitz on lease if you fail to show professional ethics
 
Hello
 
You serious? Russia was a Superpower for the last 30 decades so how could the Indians feed the Russians when the Indians cant even fairly give enough food for half a Billion people? Lets not compare Russia with India okay? They have been Indias most loyal friend and I think this will be over soon. Russia isnt Ethiopia, BTW How the F! can India leach a Super Carrier over 90 000 Tonnes with no experience, not enough escort, enough MONEY, India budget is same as S Korea and Saudi Arabia with less soldiers and they cant even afford it or just dont need it.. You are talking rubish there and got no proof, Heck Chinese are very smart and starting from the botom upwards, India already wants a carrier with what 2 destroyers? lol nice target.  You need to balance it out with everything, Increase budget to about 100 Billion+ then we start talking...India and Indians are in a dream land seriously



 
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RockyMTNClimber    Japan   11/18/2008 10:24:44 AM
 
It would be interesting to see the world's reaction if Japan partnered with India to build an aircraft carrier. Japan cutting it's teeth on an Indian ship before converting the design later to their use. The Japanese are obviously quite capable of pulling off such a design and construction. A new 40,000 ton ship potentially with F35's and a ski jump. China would soil their shorts to have a couple of those hanging around the Indian Ocean & Sea of Japan, Indian and Japanese owned. Maybe a training and mutual aid agreement between the two?
 
It is likely that Russia wants that hull now but at the price of alienating India? Perhaps Russia knows the Indians aren't going to be keeping that Russian-Indian relationship much longer, with its new closer ties to the west, and Russia is just acting to keep a ship they really couldn't replace if they had too.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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razputin       11/18/2008 12:06:13 PM

Razputin,

 

U are a true little son of some communist redhead....Try screwing us[Indians] with this deal and watch ur economy tumble...Screw us once and we will show you how much buying power we have. We dare you forget how we have fed russian kids for last 5 decades with our money....Just so you know, we are already considering getting USS Nimitz on lease if you fail to show professional ethics....Russia has no future if it has people like you in high places.

See things are not that bad then. I like indians but think it would be better to keep the aircraft for ourselves. you still get the fifth gen fighter if it ever comes to fruition since you are financing its development to a large degree. But selling you gorshkov was a mistake. We should have kept it for ourselves and we just might. Nothing personal. It's just business.
And thanks for keeping our children fed all those years!!! 

 
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razputin       11/18/2008 12:08:19 PM

I'm not the only one who considers the Gorshkov Affair to be a clever way for the Russians to finance the reconstruction of a warship with other peoples' money. They can simply take it for themselves once the work is all done; who will stop them?  Just look at what has happened to a lot of Western investments in Russia since the 1990s: once the factory is built, or the ore discovered and refinery built by foreigners, the Russians often undertook crooked moves to take control of the enterprise, its resources, or capital themselves. 

 

All the Russians have to do is pass some law or just make an administrative rule saying that the Indians have to file some papers by a certain time or in  a certain place or they don't get the ship, then prevent the Indians from doing just that - maybe by backdating the papers.  Or they can pass a timely law forbidding exports of Russian vessels in the cause of peace, and permitting the Russian Navy to use the ship "to keep it in shape" while untangling the resulting red tape.  The possibilities are endless, and it's an easy bet that there are plenty of people in Russia licking their chops about it all.



Pretty much yeah. But those investments you are referring to were part of deals made in the early 90's and favoured the western companies more than anything. WE can't just sell mother Russia so cheap to you bastards so they had to be revoked. How else are we going to finance our regional aspirations?
 
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razputin       11/18/2008 12:17:41 PM

 
It is likely that Russia wants that hull now but at the price of alienating India? Perhaps Russia knows the Indians aren't going to be keeping that Russian-Indian relationship much longer, with its new closer ties to the west, and Russia is just acting to keep a ship they really couldn't replace if they had too.
 
Check Six
Rocky

That relationship with India  has been strong even when Russia was down for quite a long period of time. And there is still plenty of miltech the Inidans would love to get from us so they are going to have to deal with that if the deal falls through. And we are going to build four nuclear reactors for them anyways.
We need a carrier to have some semblance of power projection. I mean US will not give a damn right now. But those navy  wargames in the mediterranian sure do scare Europeans shitless))) 
 
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DragonReborn    Queen Elizabeth Class?    11/18/2008 2:42:58 PM
What would the implications to UK security be of offering to build India one or two hulls based upon the Queen Elizabeth Class?
 
I'm sure we wouldn't want to offer the full suite of electronic wizardry we will be putting in our versions, but a stripped down version for export with catapults fitted for MIGs would surely suit India very well and also help fund the UK build, especially with France as a joint partner looking wobbly?
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    The QEs are very expensive.    11/18/2008 5:56:50 PM

What would the implications to UK security be of offering to build India one or two hulls based upon the Queen Elizabeth Class?

 India could use a multi-mission ship,k but as Britain will find out, the cost of the carrier task force that comes with it, is immense..

I'm sure we wouldn't want to offer the full suite of electronic wizardry we will be putting in our versions, but a stripped down version for export with catapults fitted for MIGs would surely suit India very well and also help fund the UK build, especially with France as a joint partner looking wobbly?

The Indians will still need a complete air tradffic control system and probably battlerspace management system, so the hull will c9ome packed with electronics. Britain should just build an export model suite and get some business for its electronics firms as well as its shipbuilders. Might as well as offer HARRIER III (version to be developed off of HARRIER AV-8) It doesn't have to be a Mach 2 VSTOL bird to do the role for the Indian Navy. It just has to lug a good radar and carry decent rockets. 

But bear in mind-EXPENSIVE.  



Herald

 
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