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Subject: What the V-22 Lost In Iraq
SYSOP    5/8/2008 4:52:14 AM
 
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Nichevo       5/8/2008 6:07:58 AM
Many marine commanders want the MV-22 in Afghanistan, where it would operate more effectively in the thin air of the mountains than the helicopters currently used. But the marine brass want to see the results of the tear down inspection before risking that.


Why would it do so?  In fixed-wing mode almost surely it would be more efficient.  But would its artificially short props really beat the air in AF conditions better than Chinook or *Hawk?

I'm glad that all so far seems well.  More info to follow, one hopes, as with details on missions it's been used for; is there much call for rapid descents and the risk of the VRS problem?  Has it been used for jumps and dustoffs?  How does it do in rough field work?  Dust kick up like hell as was always thought?

But it sounds like the Marines won this battle.
 
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YelliChink       5/8/2008 10:32:35 AM


Why would it do so?  In fixed-wing mode almost surely it would be more efficient.  But would its artificially short props really beat the air in AF conditions better than Chinook or *Hawk?

I'm glad that all so far seems well.  More info to follow, one hopes, as with details on missions it's been used for; is there much call for rapid descents and the risk of the VRS problem?  Has it been used for jumps and dustoffs?  How does it do in rough field work?  Dust kick up like hell as was always thought?

But it sounds like the Marines won this battle.

MV-22 can fly like conventional turboprop aircraft, and that's where it operates better than helicopters. Nevertheless, I guess when operates at 4000m (12000ft) and above, it still needs short runway for take off and landing. Both Mi-6 and Mi-24 have short stub wings to help lifting while in flight, take off and landing, but they can only do rolling take off/landing with heavy payload at high altitude.

It's just a matter of time before somebody figure out a way to drop bombs from these birds.
 
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oOOOo       5/8/2008 12:09:33 PM
It's just a matter of time before somebody figure out a way to drop bombs from these birds.
Why would we want to do this? All existing fighter/bomber/attack platforms are already designed for the bomb-drop role. What advantage would be had by adding bomb-drop to the Osprey skill set? Be able to work from close-in airfields? Harrier does this now. F-35c will take over that role. For what it is worth - but that is another topic.
 
And running bombing out of close-in areas would add stress to already stretched logistics chains. Munitions would have to go into Iraq/Afghanistan and land softly rather than get delivered with a hard drop directly on the enemy from a mission flown out of Qatar, Diego Garcia or off a carrier in the gulf. Additional fuel to support bomb runs would have to be forward staged. And additional hours would be racked up on a platform that will be scarce probably throughout its entire planned life-cycle. While we have all these B-52s that we just can't wear out. And we can refuel most bomb-droppers mid-air without driving tank trucks hundreds of miles through semi-hostile terrain.
 
We have 3 highly capable bombers. B-52, B1B and B-2. (Maybe count C130 as it drops daisy cutters/MOABs ... though that could be described as earthmoving.) And all the fighter/attack designs, F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10. Squadrons, wings, flights of trained pilots, mechanics, other support. For platforms that will never ever be able to move troops tactically. But can drop bombs very accurately from a wide variety of altitudes. From safe out-of-theatre bases. And we have more and more UAVs coming online who don't even have to risk a pilot at 20k feet to drop bombs or deliver hell-fires. The chair force doesn't even risk these pilots getting the in-country trots - they fly from CONUS and mow their own lawns on the weekends.
 
We have an entire service, possibly two, severely lacking something to do in this house-to-house conflict. Except for the less and less frequent bomb-drop.
 
Osprey greatly enhances troop movement: speed, ceiling, range. New combat tactics for the current flavor of confict will develop from this technology - counter-insurgency tactics that have not been thought of yet. And the Osprey is incredibly well suited for the SAR (search and rescue) role. As a bomber it would be mediocre at best - while being expensive and complex.
Why would we want to take airframes extraordinarily well-suited to the highly sought after troop movement function and force it as a poor fit into the over-supplied and under sought after bomb-drop function?

Seems more like we should be finding a way to allow the Army to take some not-yet-contracted for iterations of this design into its hanger (to replace aging and less capable rotor-craft) in spite of the Osprey being a quasi-fixed-wing craft. For troop movement - not bombing. Bombing is covered.
 
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YelliChink       5/8/2008 12:47:00 PM

Why would we want to do this? All existing fighter/bomber/attack platforms are already designed for the bomb-drop role. What advantage would be had by adding bomb-drop to the Osprey skill set? Be able to work from close-in airfields? Harrier does this now. F-35c will take over that role. For what it is worth - but that is another topic.
Two words: Operational Cost.

Fighter jets and heavy bombers are awesome, and the cost are as awesome as well. It makes more sense to operate something like A-26 for the conflict that the US is engaging at the moment. I don't think the US needs hundreds of them. Two dozens of AV-22 with bomb dropping and 30mm cannons fitted would be adequate for the job. You don't get those high prowlers from fighter jets.
 
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flamingknives       5/8/2008 1:10:39 PM
The V22 costs as much as a fighter jet, and with two turboprops and lots of parasitic weight for the ground attack role it isn't really the cheap option.


 
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Herald12345    Bring back the Skyraider.   5/8/2008 5:25:20 PM
Or its turbo-prop equivalent.

Herald
 
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newjarheadean       5/8/2008 7:16:56 PM

oOOo

I for one am totally against duplication. However,

Your question (?Why would we wont to do this??) reminded me of something I read one time in my AFA magazine.

Each MV-22 missions would have multiply objectives, its payload used like an F-16s sniper pod might be used by someone else with out the pilot even being a ware of it. Bombs on a MV-22 might pickle in support of ground forces without the MV-22 pilots having to do anything. CPUs and software would work out all the details etc.

Administration and logistic? Do not the MV-22 operate out of the same bases as the AH-1s that I believe do drop bombs.

I did find your commit about the lack of Army involvement with the V-22 interresting.


 
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oOOOo       5/9/2008 12:37:12 PM

Two words: Operational Cost.

Fighter jets and heavy bombers are awesome, and the cost are as awesome as well. It makes more sense to operate something like A-26 for the conflict that the US is engaging at the moment. I don't think the US needs hundreds of them. Two dozens of AV-22 with bomb dropping and 30mm cannons fitted would be adequate for the job. You don't get those high prowlers from fighter jets.
The Osprey is not cheap. It's expense makes sense because it can move more troops faster, farther and safer than any other platform.
Dropping bombs, delivering hellfires, or putting large caliber rounds on target can be done better and cheaper by other already existing and under-utilitized platforms. Two dozen Osprey is a large percentage of a new platform cautiously growing into its planned role. Why create havoc and add a new role now? When you have so many existing resources ready willing and able to do the job?
 
Not sure what "high prowlers" means or what it has to do with fighters. Or Osprey.

 
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oOOOo       5/9/2008 1:24:08 PM

Each MV-22 missions would have multiply objectives, its
payload used like an F-16s sniper pod might be used by someone else with out
the pilot even being a ware of it. Bombs on a MV-22 might pickle in support of
ground forces without the MV-22 pilots having to do anything. CPUs and software
would work out all the details etc.

Administration and logistic? Do not the MV-22 operate out of
the same bases as the AH-1s that I believe do drop bombs.

I did find your commit about the lack of Army involvement with the V-22 interresting.


Not sure multiple objectives is a good idea. Every pound of lightning pod or ordnance tacked on would be a pound of troop NOT carried. A very clear trade-off. And lightning probably would require an additional APU - more trooper pounds left behind. An Osprey might eventually be able to do both roles - but would then do neither role as well as the Osprey currently does the transport and the AH-1 does the cover.
If they are running AH-1s out of the same places as the Osprey, why wouldn't that continue? The Osprey can't offload and conduct an orbit patrol simultaneously. Perhaps range and speed? I'm showing 395 miles 175mph for the AH-1, air-refuel/infinite miles 316 mph for the Osprey. So AH-1's covering takoff might have a hard time being the same AH-1's covering a landing 600 miles away. I expect that is handled with operational planning: task different AH-1's perhaps operating from a different place to cover the landing. It might simplify planning to have a gunship platform with the same speed and refueling as the Osprey. But the AH-1 is engineered from the ground up to take fire and keep flying as a gunship. As such it is superior to a huey with a gun duct-taped on - and likely also superior to an Osprey retro-fitted for such a role. The tiny AH-1 has got to be way more nimble and way more effective than a huge bus-like Osprey ever could be. Why make an outstanding bus into a mediocre yet expensive bus/B-17?
 
Multiple objectives makes the mission more constrained, more demanding and more subject to one or two details hosing the entire mission. Multiple objectives sounds to me like mission creep. Bombs pickling off with no pilot/bombadier in the loop? Don't know that I'd care to be the grunt under that bomber. CPU's and software might be able to work out the details ... after a couple decades of development and testing. The Osprey is only just barely operational as it is. If you add major stuff like that, it will be a different model Osprey or a major upgrade, both decades away. Not something you program up on your cell phone and upload to the plane. Nor should it be. Not sure it should happen at all.
 
My limited understanding is that only the Marines and the Air Force are getting Ospreys. The Air Force birds are for the SAR function. The Army is somewhat limited by the Key West Agreement that keeps them away from fixed wing. Yet the Army is running more and more UAVs and does have some fixed wing material-moving capability. And the Osprey looks a lot like a replacement candidate for the large high altitude rotary-wing troop mover. Far better capabilities, far more money. But I think that replacement contract is being fought over by purely rotary-wing product manufacturers who have narrowed the contracts specs to favor pure rotary. Wonder what the Army is thinking as they observe the Marine Osprey in action.
 
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newjarheadean    SPINNING   5/9/2008 11:39:32 PM

Not trying to blame you oOOOo but this terminology causes me to (LOL) Sniper, LANTRIN, lighting, what will it be called next year while they all use the same sensors just change the software rearrange some hard ware and reducing the APU requirements is always a plus. My point all this reminds me of the end less number of huge satellites only capable of one mission, usually weather observations. As for decades in the future will in the computer world that?s light years now, maybe one decade.  Gun duck, mission creep, Uncle Sam is always changing his terms at every level of command, and the entire vocabulary every generation. This prevents the development of worth while knowledge, a recruit probably spends a year or two learning just to understand the terms and thinks he or she has learned so much and it could have all been spent on other useful info. Its what I call the information filter system, keep them all learning two plus one and then one plus two etc.

The Ah-1s capabilities not same-same as MV-22 is a very go observation. So I guess the USMC is planning of using the F-35s. Let the UAVs deal with the AAA.  My note on the bombs pickling under the control of some master battle field program would involve the weapons being used only during ingress and egress. And all MV-22 of a particular sortie would not be on the ground at the same time. There might be situations where a target is ID and the system simply waits for a platform to bring a weapon within range. Aircraft would have over riding systems to make sure they arrived at their objectives with the weapons they need. SDBs packages are going to really bring down the weight. Or you could be right about it all and I?m just Asiatic.


 
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SATCtech    the risk of the VRS problem?    5/10/2008 8:48:59 AM
Too bad that so many people are still confused about VRS and the V-22. The Osprey is less susceptible to encountering VRS than any other rotary winged platform in the inventory and recovery is accomplished much quicker and easier than in any other platform. This was all spelled out in 2003 in the HROD test report.
 
 
link
 
V?22 HIGH RATE OF DESCENT (HROD) TEST PROCEDURES AND LONG RECORD ANALYSIS

ABSTRACT

In August 2003, the V?22 Integrated Test Team completed a thorough investigation of the V?22?s low-speed / HROD flight

characteristics. Testing defined an operational envelope for the aircraft and demonstrated flight regimes free from vortex ring

state (VRS). Tests also probed deeply into fully developed VRS to determine precise flight conditions where it may be encountered,

and to confirm the ability of the V?22 to recover from the condition. The ability to tilt the nacelles proved to be a

powerful and (in every case) reliable means for rapidly regaining aerodynamic function of the rotors, even when operating in

VRS beyond the point of having sufficient controllability. Results for steady-state HROD conditions are presented and the

methods for testing are described. In an operational sense, the test results show that the V?22 has a significantly higher rate

of descent margin for avoiding VRS with respect to the published NATOPS limitation than conventional low disk-loading

helicopters. Furthermore, dynamic maneuver testing of the V?22 showed that VRS cannot be initiated outside the steadystate

VRS boundary. Simple engineering analysis is used to show that the V?22?s steady-state VRS boundary is predictable

by simple methods that work for conventional helicopters. High blade twist, and the side-by-side rotor configuration of the

V?22 do not play a significant role in defining the VRS boundary.

1

 
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newjarheadean    my appologies for sounding off    5/10/2008 2:36:02 PM

Points I failed to address.

I did not suggest the AH-1Zs or any other models where escorting the MV-22s, my point about AH-1s dropping bombs and operating from the same base, was that the logistics should already be in place.

As for not wonting to be under that bomber, every day in hospitals all over the world life and death hangs in the balance of circuits, seems odd that one would question the accuracy of those same circuits when it comes to taking life. That dose give one reason to spend 10 billion more on R&D thou.

Finally I am not advocating any of this the idea was written about in an Air force association magazine years ago.  


 
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nyetneinnon       5/11/2008 9:27:22 PM
IMO, the sooner the US armed forces can successfully employ both CH-53K the better (at about %25 estimated development costs of V-22).
 
And so goes for Army to mass-deploy its Predator variant, as well as mass USAF Reaper deployment.
 
Then capability will multifold and costs decrease.
 
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oOOOo       5/12/2008 8:51:49 AM

... mass USAF Reaper deployment....

Something about the USAF's tendancy to declare resources "strategic" and never use them comes to mind.
 
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oOOOo       5/12/2008 9:29:26 AM

...The Ah-1s capabilities not same-same as MV-22 is a very go
observation. So I guess the USMC
is planning of using the F-35s. Let the UAVs deal with the AAA.  ...
 SDBs packages are going to really bring down the
weight. ...
I think I've read that the Osprey doesn't really need mid-flight escort - provided we maintain the air superiority we've had since ww2. The Osprey flies higher than any effective aaa. It is launch and landing that require cover or support. Thus the rotary wing gunships that the USMC is in fact using.
 
I have doubts that the F-35c would be used as low cover for Osprey. Yes, the 'C' can hover. But like a cow on ice. And the fuel requirements at hover would probably be prohibitive. An AH-1 loves the orbit cover situation - find me a target I can shoot mentality. The F-35c pilot on the other hand would be desperately trying not to crash or flame-out. And the C would be a target itself small only in comparison to the Osprey.
 
Point is, if I'm landing an Osprey, I don't want the 35 for cover. I don't even want a small prop fighter. I want the AH-1 because it can provide persistant cover inside a small radius. Everything else makes a series of passes. The AH-1 is just there: all teeth in all directions, all the time.
 
I don't think the AH-1s drop bombs. Launch missiles, yeah. Hellfire, TOW, maybe other missile types. Large caliber rounds, yeah. Bombs, I don't think so. Bombs require a bomb run to deliver the initial inertia, a bombing computer and totally different training than the missile target lock and fire training. I just don't think the AH-1's are set up for it. Yes, the bombs are most often GPS or laser guided now, but they still have to be released into a mathmatically calculated cone shape that allows their guidance to home them on the target using inertia and gravity. AH-1s probably are rarely high enough to see the big part of that cone. They are more of an in-the-mud type of tool rather than a big-sky, high-altitude, enter target GPS coordinates type of tool. The AH-1s have a helmut-eyesight targeting system that can quickly put the gun's crosshairs or a missile's seeker on a target and deliver stuff even while passing a target sideways. Not something a SDB could do for you in a similar situation. The SDB is something you release at 400mph at 10k feet. It then uses that 10k feet to use tiny fins to come down almost vertical on the target. Released from 500 feet at 0 mph it probably tumbles like a brick and has little to no ability to home. Just not the right weapon for a platform designed to be close to the ground.
 
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