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Subject: Gas the caves?
00_Chem_AJB    7/24/2007 11:46:33 PM
How effective would gas, say mustard gas or lewisite, delivered by bombardment or dispersed from canisters be against an heavily entrenched enemy, who was using fortifications and caves (Not unlike the Japanese at Iwo Jima)
 
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RockyMTNClimber    OC and other non lethal gasses   7/25/2007 11:49:20 AM

How effective would gas, say mustard gas or lewisite, delivered by bombardment or dispersed from canisters be against an heavily entrenched enemy, who was using fortifications and caves (Not unlike the Japanese at Iwo Jima)


 Will get the job done without the nasty side effects.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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paul1970    other gases...   7/25/2007 11:56:01 AM
 how about hitting them with Homokaasu????  
 
that will give them a real nasty dilema if they wish to stay true to the Islamic faith....     :-)
 
 
Paul
 
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FJV       7/25/2007 12:43:24 PM
It will only be effective when used the 1st time, because of the suprise effect.

After the 1st suprise WW1 and the Iran Iraq war shows that enemies rapidly learn to deal with it.


 
 
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00_Chem_AJB       7/26/2007 7:49:31 PM
True, however they may not have the resources available to deal with another attack, for example a gas mask alone wont save you from vesicant agents. Plus chemical weapons have a massive demoralising effect against an unprepared enemy,
 
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Nichevo       7/27/2007 1:00:37 AM
1)  what is Homokaasu?  A pork product?

2)  Instead of a mass attack like Hussein's which would kill innocents indiscriminately, how about a bio agent?  With a long incubation period and a particular cure.  Arrange to infect some AQ people who are to go free and continue their activities.  They meet with others...they meet with others...they meet with others..and so on. Perhaps eventually one meets with OBL.

You can cure sick people, but no one else readily can. 

In the isolated mountain areas, it would not soon infect the rest of the country.  Anyone who was infected, especially early (its virulence would fade over generations of transmission) could be cured if they comply with us.  With their primitive medical technology they would be very susceptible. 


 
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WarNerd       7/27/2007 3:04:02 AM

2)  Instead of a mass attack like Hussein's which would kill innocents indiscriminately, how about a bio agent?  With a long incubation period and a particular cure.  Arrange to infect some AQ people who are to go free and continue their activities.  They meet with others...they meet with others...they meet with others..and so on. Perhaps eventually one meets with OBL.

You can cure sick people, but no one else readily can. 

In the isolated mountain areas, it would not soon infect the rest of the country.  Anyone who was infected, especially early (its virulence would fade over generations of transmission) could be cured if they comply with us.  With their primitive medical technology they would be very susceptible. 

 
First, what bug do you have in mind? 
 Probably have to be something that spreads without an intermediate vector like fleas or mosquitoes.  Direct contact is not reliable enough and can be blocked by isolation, so I bet you are assuming it is passed by inhalation.  Sounds like smallpoxs or one of the genetically modified flu virus that the soviets developed.

Don't take this to harshly, but you obviously have never research bio warfare.

This is an Very Bad Idea.
 
Bio weapon spread cannot be controled.  And that "isolated" mountain area is not very isolated, just nearly impossible to sneak into and poke around without being spotted. 
 
So expect it to spread, first to the rest of Pakistan, then India.  Thats nearly 1/3 of the world's population that you need to be ready to treat. If you are not ready, then it will become a global pandemic, and even if you are expect to lose 1% of the infected that you treat
 
The only way to head this off would be a massive global vacination campaign, starting BEFORE you deploy your weapon (vacines take time to work).  Think you can keep it secret?  If you cannot, then your chance of achieving any significant effect rapidly is reduced to zero.
 
 Unless, that is, ticking off the entire planet is your idea of success.
 
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Nichevo       7/27/2007 3:29:32 AM



2)  Instead of a mass attack like Hussein's which would kill innocents indiscriminately, how about a bio agent?  With a long incubation period and a particular cure.  Arrange to infect some AQ people who are to go free and continue their activities.  They meet with others...they meet with others...they meet with others..and so on. Perhaps eventually one meets with OBL.

You can cure sick people, but no one else readily can. 

In the isolated mountain areas, it would not soon infect the rest of the country.  Anyone who was infected, especially early (its virulence would fade over generations of transmission) could be cured if they comply with us.  With their primitive medical technology they would be very susceptible. 


 

First, what bug do you have in mind? 

 Probably have to be something that spreads without an intermediate vector like fleas or mosquitoes.  Direct contact is not reliable enough and can be blocked by isolation, so I bet you are assuming it is passed by inhalation.  Sounds like smallpoxs or one of the genetically modified flu virus that the soviets developed.

Don't take this to harshly, but you obviously have never research bio warfare.


Now I have a non-speller telling me what I know and don't know?  How much detail do you want, in a public forum?  This IS a hypothetical. 


Let's say for the sake of argument that we catch a group of AQ in the Tora Bora area, infect them secretly, then let them think they escaped.  Simple enough?    Gas 'em, needle 'em, put it in their chow, give 'em fleas.  Actually I like that, give 'em fleas.  Okay, bubonic or better yet pneumonic plague, spread by vermin.  They are put in a holding cell and exposed - lousy bedding.  Many ways to skin the cat, or to infect it.


Smallpox could also work depending on vaccination standards, but would be suspicious.  There are other options...Bubonic would be a natural in this region of course.  Hantavirus maybe.  Hepatitis.  A nice superflu would make sense, but as I think you suggest, might be TOO easily spread.  Something with precedents so it doesn't look too fishy.

It's true I was considering an engineered toxin as I'm not sure anything would have a long enough incubation period.



This is an Very Bad Idea.

 

Bio weapon spread cannot be controled.  And that "isolated" mountain area is not very isolated, just nearly impossible to sneak into and poke around without being spotted. 
 
Do YOU know this area?  Last I recall it was being isolated, by the Pak army.  These are hill people, as a rule they don't get out to the city much.  There would also have to be extensive surveillance and evaluation of legitimate contacts. 

It had occurred to me to present this argument another way, with some sort of radioactive taggant or traceable nonlethal bacteria, simply to make them easier to find.



So expect it to spread, first to the rest of Pakistan, then India.  Thats nearly 1/3 of the world's population that you need to be ready to treat. If you are not ready, then it will become a global pandemic, and even if you are expect to lose 1% of the infected that you treat

Do they vaccinate for smallpox in India/Pak?  They might.  I bet the hill people are the last to get it.  We know that Muslims don't like Western vaccines if Nigeria is an example.  Easy enough campaign to start before or during. 

Besides, while I would regret India, Pak to some extent buys this by not dealing with the problem another way.  Oh I would regret pak too, but I'm an old softie.

 

The only way to head this off would be a massive global vacination campaign, starting BEFORE you deploy your weapon (vacines take time to work).  Think you can keep it secret?  If you cannot, then your chance of achieving an
 
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swhitebull    Not Easy   7/27/2007 6:52:29 PM
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2001/11/29/whunt229big.jpeg">
 
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swhitebull    Not Easy   7/27/2007 6:54:50 PM
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K8447BAZL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU15_AA240_SH20_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.ca/Afghanistan-Cave-Complexes-1979-2004-Strongholds/dp/184176776X&h=240&w=240&sz=14&hl=en&start=0&um=1&tbnid=2bexSEka71vNvM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtaliban%2Bcave%2Bcomplexes%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DDKUS,DKUS:2006-34,DKUS:en%26sa%3DN">http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K8447BAZL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU15_AA240_SH20_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.ca/Afghanistan-Cave-Complexes-1979-2004-Strongholds/dp/184176776X&h=240&w=240&sz=14&hl=en&start=0&um=1&tbnid=2bexSEka71vNvM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtaliban%2Bcave%2Bcomplexes%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DDKUS,DKUS:2006-34,DKUS:en%26sa%3DN
 
 
 
swhitebull  - lots more on how these were engineered, and designed to withstand gas -  maybe not a MOAB or 2 though 
 
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Yimmy       7/27/2007 7:55:33 PM
To deal with cave systems all you need do is patrol the top and block off any ventilation shafts, while setting a fire at the entrance... people have to breath.
 
 
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