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Subject: Whistleblower Released
giblets    4/21/2004 3:39:58 AM
As a board full of people who are strongly against the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, I am sure that we are all pleased to see the release of Mordechai Vanunu. Vanunu, who released details of Israels illegal nuclear weapons project at dimona has been released after 18 years of imprisonment, 12 of whcih were in solitary confinement.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Whistleblower Released   4/21/2004 3:45:43 AM
He's still passport locked though. Not allowed to have any international cups of coffee for 12 months yet.
 
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swhitebull    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 4:14:49 AM
...Vanunu, who released details of Israels illegal nuclear weapons project at dimona has been released after 18 years of imprisonment, 12 of whcih were in solitary confinement... I'm curious - in what way was and is Israel's Dimona project illegal? I wasnt aware that they had ever declared that they had nuclear weapons, whether legal OR illegal. More importantly, I was under the STRONG assumption that one had to be a signatory of a treaty protocol in order to be in non-compliance of that treaty, or to be subject to its terms and conditions. Is Israel? Can you be a little more specific on their ILLEGAL weapons program? Illegal under what treaty? I wasnt aware of this illegality in any way. Do you KNOW something about Israel's alleged nuclear weapons progrem being illegal that I don't? In fact, here's an article on it - specifically correcting people's apparent MISUNDERSTANDING or pre-conceived notion that Israel alleged weapons program is legal or not: http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-12042.asp NOte this is from the Economist Magazine itself - hardly pro-Israel in any way. I repeat, for your understanding, the last several paragraphs: IN regard to claims of Iraq building nuclear weapons but that the Israels secretly possesses them them and should have allow inspectors, this again is a canard. Iraq was, and is, a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty, therefore OBLIGATING the Iraqis to the tenets and inspections of the IAEA. Israel never signed the treaty. Since Israel is NOT a signatory, it is under NO obligation to allow inspections, and can not be subject to sanctions under the IAEA rules. Membership is VOLUNTARY, as is NON membership. Again, to quote The Economist: "Israel is thought to possess a large nuclear arsenal, about which it is not being open and honest, and this is provoking to its neighbours. But it is not evidence of “double standards”. Being a nuclear-armed power is not, by itself, a breach of international law." Note the conclusion of The Economist, I repeat again in case you missed it: "BEING A NUCLEAR-ARMED POWER IS NOT, BY ITSELF, A BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL LAW" swhitebull - did I miss something here - "NOT A BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL LAW"? It presume that you were just not aware of this fact, and were expressing what you thought were the facts, rather that your opinion. Understandably, since most people are not that up to the intricacies of international treaty law - and how those laws are applied - especially to Israel - whether she is subject to a protocol or not. It's called a double standard. Oh, and if you want some more background on Vanunu, we refer you to this piece as well: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1082438195786
 
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swhitebull    More on Vanunu's activities   4/21/2004 4:17:01 AM
From Jerusalem Post editorial, with background info on him: Vanunu's release -4/20/2004 Among the many things said about Mordechai Vanunu, the Israeli due to be released from prison today after serving his 18-year sentence for revealing the country's nuclear secrets, is that he is a champion of the anti-nuclear cause. Not so. In 1981, Vanunu, with Arab activists, protested against Israel's destruction of Iraq's Osirak reactor. Vanunu, then, wasn't against the bomb outright. He apparently approved of it in Arab hands. Advertisement Indeed, for years prior to Vanunu's arrest and trial, he was a pro-Arab extremist to the point that Hebrew University students and staff, who knew he was employed at the Dimona reactor, wondered how such a person could be allowed near the nation's most secure facility. This was the first, most easily preventable, and most egregious error of the entire affair. Today, Vanunu has become the stuff of legend, at least to some people. He has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. There is a US "Campaign to Free Mordechai Vanunu." He was the subject – indeed, the hero – of a BBC Panorama documentary that aired last summer. Upon his release he will be greeted by a coterie of high-profile admirers, including Irish Nobelist Mairead Maguire, British MPs Jeremy Corbyn and Colin Breed, and Bruce Kent of Britain's Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Letters of support from actress Emma Thompson and playwright Harold Pinter will be read aloud. Ostensibly, Vanunu owes his fame to what he stands for: nuclear disarmament, freedom of information, human rights. In fact, it is owed mainly to what he stands against. "I am against Israel," he is reported to have told the Shin Bet. "I am against your state." It would be interesting to know how many of Vanunu's supporters share this sentiment. In Israel, Vanunu gets little sympathy, even from the Left. Shimon Peres, who was prime minister when Vanunu was seized and tried in 1986, is blunt: "Vanunu violated norms and betrayed his country," he told Army Radio. "This is justice." In an editorial, Haaretz accuses him of "seriously harming state security." Yossi Sarid, the former leader of Meretz, describes him as a pathetic, mentally disturbed man. His advice is to ignore Vanunu to allow the current media feeding frenzy to die with a whimper. We wish we could be as sanguine that Vanunu will disappear from public view. More likely, he will become a handy tool for anti-Israel campaigners, particularly if he is allowed to leave Israel in a year. The cumulative damage he will continue to do to Israel as a propagandist will considerably exceed the damage he caused as a spy. That said, we do not mean to suggest that Vanunu should be forbidden to leave a country he no longer recognizes as his own. On the contrary, this was a right he ought to have exercised long before he chose to betray Israel's secrets and must be allowed to soon exercise again. Vanunu may remain a threat, but that consideration ought to have been taken account during his sentencing in 1986. Now his sentence has been served and his rights must be respected. In this regard, the decision by the government not to place Vanunu in administrative detention is correct. Indeed, it is this very fact that most powerfully gives the lie to the arguments of Vanunu's defenders. An Israel that gratuitously violated the rights of its citizens would not have sentenced him to a fixed term and then released him, proud and by all appearances healthy, when his time came. Much less would it have countenanced the celebration that will be held today in his honor. In the very act of letting him go free, Israel proves wrong Vanunu's contentions about the State of Israel. We do not expect Vanunu or his defenders to take this into account. These are people who are beyond persuasion, animated by rage and undisturbed by fact. But as they make the moral case against Israel, Israel will make the moral case for itself. We trust that fair-minded observers will draw the obvious conclusion. In the case of Vanunu, justice has been served and will sooner or later be recognized. swhitebull
 
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giblets    RE:More on Vanunu's activities   4/21/2004 4:25:45 AM
You will be well aaware that vanunu was born in Morroco, so will have seen the effects of interracial and religious violence. More than that, you will be well aware of the propaganda against him, many Israeli papers have been saying how he has been celebrating Suicide bombers, a fact refuted by many of his other inmates. I love this bit: "I am against Israel," he is reported to have told the Shin Bet. "I am against your state." This is obviously when he is being interogated, buy people who drugged him, and no doubt tortured him, in fact that whole statement says it all, very typical propaganda, if Iraq or Syria arrested soemone and they released that as part of the evidence against them, I am damn sure you would be the first to say that people will say anything under interogation when being tortured (mental or physical). "Yossi Sarid, the former leader of Meretz, describes him as a pathetic, mentally disturbed man." The knives are clearly out!
 
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giblets    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 4:30:41 AM
I always love pieces with phrases like: ideological fervor rabidly anti-Semitic a little man like Vanunu (should really have itallics for 'little') future or current loonies Of course this does not sound like desperate,and rather poor (if I may say so) propaganda at all!
 
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swhitebull    RE:Giblets   4/21/2004 4:32:19 AM
The more important point- you said that Israel had an illegal weapons program - In what way? swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 5:01:56 AM
..Of course this does not sound like desperate,and rather poor (if I may say so) propaganda at all.. As do claims that Israel has illegal nuclear weapons, correct? swhitebull
 
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giblets    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 5:03:05 AM
Ok, in the technical sense of the word it is not illegal, however as you well know, any resolution against Israel will be vetoed by the US in the UN, which makes it pretty ineefectual. Would be interested to see what would happen if an arab nation was given a permament seat on the UN (as there is talk of at the moment). What youa re saying is that it is POK for any country to produce nuclear weapons,a s long as they have not signed an agreement against it!
 
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swhitebull    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 5:11:46 AM
..What youa re saying is that it is POK for any country to produce nuclear weapons,a s long as they have not signed an agreement against it ... Thats usually how these things work. ..Ok, in the technical sense of the word it is not illegal, however as you well know, any resolution against Israel will be vetoed by the US in the UN, which makes it pretty ineefectual. Would be interested to see what would happen if an arab nation was given a permament seat on the UN (as there is talk of at the moment). .. Well, since the IAEA is separate from the United Nations, it is its own governing body, and has NOTHING to do with Security COuncil resolutions, I Dont see that the United Nations has any jurisdiction in a treaty whose membership is totally voluntary. It is MORE than - as you say- a "tecnnical " issue - it is all about sovereignity, membership, and what is legal and illegal. Again, in what way is the alleged possession by Israel of nuclear weapons ILLEGAL? It is NOT, and NO court of law would ever say so. Regardless of your "technical" sense. It's either legal or not, and since Israel is NOT a signatory to the NPT nor the IAEA, there is absolutely NO illegality of what she does, regardless of your claims to it or not. swhitebull - yes, we know you would love to see an arab country on the Permanent Membership, so they can beat up those big bad israelis, occupying, what, 1% of the land area of the middle east. Aint gonna happen in MY lifetime, more likely to see India, which is a real country and not a collection of thugs, despots, kleptocrats, dicatators, antiSemites, etc. Keep wishing.
 
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interrested 2    RE:Whistleblower Released - Giblets   4/21/2004 5:43:37 AM
Yeah, India, Japan and such could earn a permanent seat on the council. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/ranking.htm As it is now, the security council in to much western orientated (USA, England, France, UK) There is absolutely NO WAY that the current members will allow a unstable/closed society/oppressing etc etc government to join. So this rules out about all of the arab countries except Egypt and Turkey
 
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