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Subject: Russian Rocket Reliability at Risk
SYSOP    4/5/2008 5:25:45 AM
 
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kensohaski       4/5/2008 8:05:46 AM
I stand in wonder about launching an expensive comm sat on top of a cheap commie rocket. I wonder what the reliability of a Delta booster is v. the commie rocket.  As in anything else, you get what youi pay for.
 
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Lance Blade       4/5/2008 3:55:17 PM

I stand in wonder about launching an expensive comm sat on top of a cheap commie rocket. I wonder what the reliability of a Delta booster is v. the commie rocket.  As in anything else, you get what youi pay for.


For what it's worth, here's a half decent comparison of heavy launch vehicles on wikipedia: link

As we can see, the reliability of a Proton rocket currently stands at 290/330, vs. 1/2 for a Delta IV Heavy. That's an 87.9% for Proton, vs. 50% for the new Delta. Probably because it's such a new system, and not nearly all bugs have been ironed out. The Proton, meanwhile, has been in service for 43 years. I think the problem occured with the (also relatively new) Briz-M upper stage, which itself has a record of 4/7 successful launches (and 3 failures, as mentioned in the article).
 
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WarNerd       4/6/2008 1:19:44 PM
The Russian's should have records for when the all the components of these launch vehicles were manufactured and assembled.  It might be a good idea to compile and compare the history of ALL launch vehicles that they have used.
 
The failures may be due to shifting from stored vehicles manufactured in the USSR (Cold War period) to ones of recent manufacture in re-opened facilities.  If so these might be considered a new case of launch vehicle due to the massive lose of institutional (work force) knowledge, and this is a "teething" problem.
 
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Nichevo       4/13/2008 10:13:59 PM
Can I be honest?  I don't want to help the Russians make better rockets.  Let's get the Delta, etc., failure rates down first.
 
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Lance Blade       4/23/2008 8:33:17 AM

Can I be honest?  I don't want to help the Russians make better rockets.  Let's get the Delta, etc., failure rates down first.
The problem with that is that sats will still need to be launched now, not when the Deltas have been perfected. Would you launch an important military sat on a rocket with a 50% failure rate? I agree that more effort needs to be put into the Delta IV Heavy, but for now, stuff needs sending up there relatively reliably.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this came about? Did the Americans retire the Atlas too soon? Why such a gaping hole in domestic heavy LVs that they've had to resort to foreign ones?

 
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Herald12345    First of all, DON'T use Wiki for a source.    4/23/2008 9:22:11 AM
Second of all, the EELV series of boosters . the Delta IVs are tailored for payload lofting. So you have 5 Mediums, and the Heavy variants of the SAME rocket. That rocket is the RS-68 oxygen/hydrogen combo liquid fueled rocket built by Rocketdyne. which is assisted aloft by a solid fueled strapon stage and  That RS-68 rocket is just shag shy of  3 MNewtons of thrust  



Said rocket has a failure ratio of 1 loss/7 successes in its launch history; so its operational success ratio is 84%: not 50% as alleged.

Sheesh.

Herald


 
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nominoe       4/23/2008 10:07:27 AM
Lanceblade, if you need to launch some important satellites now, contact ESA and use Ariane 5 ECA ;) :

90% success rate (94% if you don't count partial failures)
Last 24 launch were success. It seems to be the best heavy launcher around there.
 
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Herald12345       4/23/2008 10:17:24 AM

Lanceblade, if you need to launch some important satellites now, contact ESA and use Ariane 5 ECA ;) :

90% success rate (94% if you don't count partial failures)
Last 24 launch were success. It seems to be the best heavy launcher around there.

Absolutely. The French build EXCELLENT rockets.

Herald
 
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Lance Blade    I think you've killed of your own arguement there, Herald   4/24/2008 9:27:11 AM
The basic Delta IV rocket has an operational reliability of 87.5% (7/8 x 100) meaning there's a 12.5% chance it'll fail at launch (currently). Since the Delta IV Heavy system is comprised of 3 rockets, and failure of one brings down the entire system, we have total reliability of 100- (12.5x3) = 62.5%, which is somewhat closer to the 50% record for the system. So actually, Wiki is right, you have to evaluate a system as a whole, and the more components there are, there less reliable it is. It's why the N-1 failed, incidentally, it had a huge number of engines compared to its contemporary the Saturn-V, thus failure of a single engine was relatively likely, and enough to consistently bring the whole system down.

Nominoe, I agree the Ariane 5 looks best in its class today. The Proton leads by sheer number of successful launches, which, I'm not sure how important that is in the industry, but I have a gut feeling that it does count.

 
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Herald12345    You are an idiot.   4/24/2008 10:05:56 AM

The basic Delta IV rocket has an operational reliability of 87.5% (7/8 x 100) meaning there's a 12.5% chance it'll fail at launch (currently). Since the Delta IV Heavy system is comprised of 3 rockets, and failure of one brings down the entire system, we have total reliability of 100- (12.5x3) = 62.5%, which is somewhat closer to the 50% record for the system. So actually, Wiki is right, you have to evaluate a system as a whole, and the more components there are, there less reliable it is. It's why the N-1 failed, incidentally, it had a huge number of engines compared to its contemporary the Saturn-V, thus failure of a single engine was relatively likely, and enough to consistently bring the whole system down.

The Delta IV HEAVY is in the beginning of its launch history [two launches]. The Ariane V's first launches were total failures - software guidance glitches: the instruction code exceeded the hardware processing speed]. So after two launches, its failures were 100%  or success rate=  0%.  The French, involved, grimly hung in there, and unlike their typical 1%er political managerial class, instead of dithering, lying, making  excuses, crafting alibis, typical  of an MBDA or Thales, the rocketeers of EADS FIXED IT. These are French rocketeers, a special elite, with a different creedo from the usual Marwan Lahoud criminal. "Make it work.", is their motto and they do.

So launch failure involves far more than simple mechanical complexity, cretin. You have to do the sheer math right.

And I might remind you LB, that BOTH Delta IV Heavies REACHED ORBIT. Check your facts on rocket failure before you write.

The December 2004 first launch of the Delta IV Heavy was a guidance failure. The payload [a dummy] went into the wrong orbit. Nobody is sure what happened.

Nominoe, I agree the Ariane 5 looks best in its class today. The Proton leads by sheer number of successful launches, which, I'm not sure how important that is in the industry, but I have a gut feeling that it does count.

And I said this. The modernized Delta IV has a long way to go before it matches Ariane, but then again, the Atlas series started as a crap rocket before all the bugs were worked out. I'm confident that US rocketeers will get it done.   


Herald
 
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Lance Blade       4/24/2008 11:11:40 AM
The Delta IV HEAVY is in the beginning of its launch history [two launches]. The Ariane V's first launches were total failures - software guidance glitches: the instruction code exceeded the hardware processing speed]. So after two launches, its failures were 100%  or success rate=  0%.  The French, involved, grimly hung in there, and unlike their typical 1%er political managerial class, instead of dithering, lying, making  excuses, crafting alibis, typical  of an MBDA or Thales, the rocketeers of EADS FIXED IT. These are French rocketeers, a special elite, with a different creedo from the usual Marwan Lahoud criminal. "Make it work.", is their motto and they do.

So launch failure involves far more than simple mechanical complexity, cretin. You have to do the sheer math right.

Are my methods of working out statistical reliability based on past experience incorrect? If so, please kindly point out where.

And I might remind you LB, that BOTH Delta IV Heavies REACHED ORBIT. Check your facts on rocket failure before you write.

Good point. I believe it is reasonable for the industry to count partial failures as failures, since you don't pay money to get stuff halfway there on in the wrong place. From the client's point of view, they have to get their payload where they want it.

The December 2004 first launch of the Delta IV Heavy was a guidance failure. The payload [a dummy] went into the wrong orbit. Nobody is sure what happened.

According to Wikipedia, cavitation in the tanks caused wrong sensor readings which resulted in a shorter burn than expected. Astronautix.com concurs that a shorter than expected burn did indeed occur, but does not state the reason for it.

And I said this. The modernized Delta IV has a long way to go before it matches Ariane, but then again, the Atlas series started as a crap rocket before all the bugs were worked out. I'm confident that US rocketeers will get it done.   

Indeed.
 
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Lance Blade    Delta IV Heavy   4/24/2008 11:17:08 AM
spaceflightnow.com mentions "an unexpected problem within its fuel lines".

hXXp://www.spaceflightnow.com/delta/d329/index.html

 
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nominoe       4/24/2008 11:30:30 AM
Herald is right, Delta heavy is only beginning it's life as a launcher, and first Ariane V launches were failures (the first due to a banal 64bits to 16bits conversion). I'm also confident that american engineers will fix "youth problems" and end with a reliable rocket, as they always did in the past.

I hope Ariane will keep the commercial edge, though. I'm also very excited about the new light launcher Vega, i hope it will keep it's promises. This one would also make a great ballistic missile!





 
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Herald12345    You are still an idiot.   4/24/2008 11:40:55 AM

spaceflightnow.com mentions "an unexpected problem within its fuel lines".

hXXp://www.spaceflightnow.com/delta/d329/index.html


Orbital insertion motor. [3rd stage, probably an RL-10 an OLD design.]  As this was a "weapon  proof"  they telemetered and gauged the WHOLE bird. It still reached orbit on its RS 68s. The exact cause for that insertion rocket to sputter early in the flyout is still unknown. Guidance is still the most likely culprit as it regulates fuel flow in a throttable engine..

You should really read the WHOLE article,  LB, before you cite it.
[quote]
The test rocket was outfitted with vast amounts of data-collecting sensors to understand all aspects of the ascent, leading to some other changes before the first operational launch.

 
Credit: Ben Cooper/Spaceflight Now
 
"We took a lot of readings on accelerations, vibrations, acoustics in the various compartments of the vehicle. In a few cases (we) determined that they were higher than we expected and we either modified the hardware slightly or moved some of the components to a more benign environment. We finished all of those (modifications) late last year, and we're very comfortable with the vehicle we've got."  


Its not like you implied, originally, that it blew up on the pad or was range destroyed in flight, or that the primary launcher FAILED.

The payload package motor failed. It happens.

Herald

 
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Lance Blade       4/24/2008 12:41:13 PM
I was going by your own arguement, Herald. You seem to suggest that, because a Delta IV Heavy is basically three Delta IVs bunged together, we should treat them as such. My point is that we shouldn't, since the heavy configuration is a completely new system, for all practical purposes.

 - An engineer was recorded by spaceflightnow.com, I believe, as saying that launching it is as difficult as launching three rockets at the same time. It's precicely that - the procedures and risks involved with keeping three rockets firing in perfect unison, uniformly, are somewhat different from those involved with keeping one rocket firing.
 - The payload stage. It's part of the Delta IV Heavy system, is it not? Therefore, it is relevant to said system, correct?
 - Different centre of mass for the new system.
 - Different airflow profile, different drag profile, different centre of pressure.
 - Additional systems, I strongly suspect, required to achieve the three rockets producing equal thrust continuously (see my first point)

Have I proven myself enough? I am IN NO WAY attacking the Delta IV Heavy LV, merely stating that it is a new system, that has had two launches, one of which was a success and the other a partial success. The client will treat the Delta IV Heavy as a different LV to the base Delta IV, and the new system has its own life and track record. As you've said yourself, it's not the base Delta IV that failed, but a stage specific to the Delta IV Heavy.

There's no need to get emotional on me and consider it your patriotic duty to defend the Delta IV Heavy. I fully appreciate that the system is in its infancy. If anything, it's a great demonstration of the fact that, so complex and difficult is spaceflight, that even with tried and tested technology, there is no guarantee of success. The same is particularly true also for the Proton partial failure.
 
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