Brit JIN

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lightningtest RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 9:18:24 AM

Public domain info is available but it obviously is not free. In Monterey, Calif, now the latest pulsed power conference is taking place. It is starting to become clear to me why the info on the JIN was just released (so people can talk about it at the conference). link other sources link page 3 link see pages 21 and 40,45 i'll be reading... from the last link. OPTICALLY-ACTIVATED SWITCHES FOR LOW-JITTER PULSED POWER APPLICATIONS, F.J. Zutavern, A. Mar, J.M. Lehr, M.W. O'Malley, L.D. Roose, J.C. Armijo, Sandia National Laboratories, USA HOLD OFF VOLTAGE FOR PSEUDOSPARK GAP IN A SOURCE OF EXTREME UV RADIATION, Y.D. Korolev, O.B. Frants, V.G. Geyman, R.V. Ivashov,N.V. Landl, I.A. Shemyakin, Institute of High Current Electronics, RUSSIA; K. Frank, R. Bischoff, University of Erlangen, GERMANY plus any other stuff which may be recomended to me.

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gf0012-aust RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 9:31:10 AM

have you got a "motherhood" statement that indicates what you're trying to achieve with this technology or is that in the non-disclosure area? in lay terms, are you trying to overload the detonater/switch circuit/mechanism with high voltages?

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lightningtest RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 9:51:09 AM

perhaps we can develop one here? I think lightning has three relevant effects, The inital rise from no current to x current cause shockwaves within whatever structure the lightning attaches to. In the case of a arty shell they are designed to be set of by shockwaves propagating through the explosive. I guess it depends of the type/age/temperature of the explosive how strong the shock wave needs to be in order to set off the main charge explosive (assuming you want to detonate the main charge in a controled manner). shock wave can be expected to propagate throughout the shell when a large arc attaches to it. However if I understand the requirement correctly from what I've just learnt then the aim is to disprupt the detonation circuit before it can trigger the main charge. Then the main charge can be shipped away to some safe place to be disposed of. The high current (~40kA) high voltage (~80kV) arc that may be achieved by a palletised system such as I've out lined could be expected to damage the detonator in the follow ways; Heating local to attachement. Shockforces local to attachement. EMP like effects on circuitry within the device (which may in fact mimic a detonation command). This arc could be applied to the antenna of a remote system. or the trailing wire of a command detonation system (Those holding onto the other end of the wire may be rather shocked by the result). If the trailing wire of a command detonated main charge is not visable then apllcation of a high current to the exposed portion of the charge may force enough current down the command wire to disable the system (i.e. short circuit the command wires at the main charge). This may again cause detonation of the main charge if a short circuit is what the main charge detonator needs in order for it to fire.

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gf0012-aust RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 10:07:44 AM

I can't see any UXO team being too excited at having a wireless solution in the area. as it stands, they're dealing with "constructed" UXO's via "different" means - at first glance I would think that you're going to be compromising existing "housekeeping" procedures. if the issue is to try and trace the control cable, then that can be achieved by sending in a cable sniffer. the problem is whether that cable is wired to be NO or NC as part of a self protection design to stop tampering. What I do find interesting is localised EMP charges, ie is it possible to shape charge an EMP device. As indicated by perfectgeneral, is it possible to destroy the explosive itself by cryogenically bathing the top and as much of the device as possible? If thats the case and you compromise the integrity of the container - it won't actually go bang like it should. You could then actually cover it with something that looks like the top of an autoclave to capture anything that does go into orbit if it does detonate. again, at a laymans perspective i'd argue: Heating local to attachement. - you would have to make it incredibly quick to heat a localised area - otherwise you might trigger the UXO/IED Shockforces local to attachement. - again risky due to not knowing what tamper proof systems have been applied. UXO/IED's are already inherently unstable - you're dancing with the devil on this one IMO. EMP like effects on circuitry within the device (which may in fact mimic a detonation command). - pretty attractive, as long as the EMP can be really localised.

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lightningtest RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 10:34:00 AM

"Heating local to attachement. - you would have to make it incredibly quick to heat a localised area - otherwise you might trigger the UXO/IED" the majority of the heating happens in the time it take to get to peak current (less than 1/100,000 of a second possibly). Wire vapourise, plastic chars, foils slap, transistors go short cicuit. In real lightning several hundred amps flows for the best part of a second to arc weld the remains. "What I do find interesting is localised EMP charges, ie is it possible to shape charge an EMP device" shaped charges compressing coils which have current flowing in them can create powerful magnetic fields that by various means can in turn generate EMP. In the 1990's Russians from st. petersberg and a few in georgia did this trick using battery powered pulse power systems. But isn't this subject a little warm to handle openly. "Shockforces local to attachement. - again risky due to not knowing what tamper proof systems have been applied. UXO/IED's are already inherently unstable - you're dancing with the devil on this one IMO." Shockwaves would be on a similar timescale to the heating, probably much faster though. " can't see any UXO team being too excited at having a wireless solution in the area. " I am getting well out of my depth with this talk of the details of UXO disposal. If multiple unlocated charges are in the area i can see a wireless way of detonating the one you have found may not be clever. "EMP like effects on circuitry within the device (which may in fact mimic a detonation command). - pretty attractive, as long as the EMP can be really localised." All open air arcs produce EMP like bursts of EM hash. Obviously some aspects of the EMP are not mimiced by the arc but neverless surounding unscreened circuits will have HF induced upon them. The EMP in some designs (didn't FAS.org do this subject to death?) can be focused if the device performs perfectly. I'll have to go in do some work now so i'll look in again later.

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gf0012-aust RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 10:44:50 AM

"I am getting well out of my depth with this talk of the details of UXO disposal. If multiple unlocated charges are in the area i can see a wireless way of detonating the one you have found may not be clever. " and on that basis, I'd suggest that you go visit MOD and see if you can arrange to speak to their disposal guys. They've had extensive exp in dealing with problems in Nthn Ireland and the spate of wireless devices that caused them problems. OTOH, posters like RM-Nod in the UK section know a fair few current operaters, so he might (if he's still around) be able to find out from people with relevant knowledge. If you're going to travel down the path of doing this kind of work, then I assume that you've got all the clearances required by MOD for an external contractor to go and talk to the right people. If not, you might need to start arranging it. If you've already done this, then ignore me as it's getting late here and I'm on the verge of losing logic ability. I might be stating the obvious, so just humour me :) " But isn't this subject a little warm to handle openly." yes, and I certainly wouldn't expect the conversation to travel down a more detailed path, take it more like a rhetorical question. ;)

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lightningtest RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 12:06:18 PM

gf0012-aust, so that is that then. Alot of unanswered questions about JIN and use of EMP. keeping it general from now on; just received from debka.com New US counterinsurgency operation at al Qaim June 17, 2005, 12:25 PM (GMT+02:00) ...snip... Five Marines were killed when their vehicle was blown up Wednesday night by a roadside bomb near the violent western Iraqi town of Ramadi, one week after the same number of US troops was killed in the same area by a similar improvised bomb. The US military reported the guerrillas had begun using a sophisticated ?shaped charge? capable of piercing heavy tank armor. This had made it necessary to improve the armor of US vehicles in Iraq. ..snip.. From [Palistine thence to] Beirut, Hizballah or al Qaeda agents were able to transfer the improved ?shaped charges? to Iraqi insurgents for use against American troops. end of quote Shek, Is this evidence of tamping of the charges, you were mentioning? Or is this yet another iteration in the VBIED battle.

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shek RE:Brit JIN ... a dumb idea? - where's EW3? 6/17/2005 12:52:40 PM

Shape charges are different than tamping. Shape charges are designed as part of the explosive and focus the energy of the blast to a small area to try and achieve penetration. A RPG is a great example of a shape charge. Depending on the design, the shape charge is most effective at a particular range, at which point, the charge diverges and is no longer as focused. Tamping is done with the setup of the charge. The explosion of a charge will travel the path of least resistance, so the effects of a 155mm round surface laid vs. one that is placed against a sidewalk will be different as the sidewalk will tamp the blast and direct it away from the sideway. However, tamping will not focus the energy of the blast as precise as a shape charge. Any further, more detailed explanation/examples are beyond my current level of knowledge.

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gf0012-aust shaped charge 6/17/2005 8:32:42 PM

"The US military reported the guerrillas had begun using a sophisticated ?shaped charge? capable of piercing heavy tank armor." I'd be curious to see whether that was the actual terminology used "at quote" ie was it a directionally focused charge or a shaped charge? it would be far easier for a T to make a directionally focused device than to design a shaped charge. one is far more concentrated.

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EW3 RE:Brit JIN 6/17/2005 9:25:07 PM

Here's the best link I could find: link If this is it, it's nothing more than a high tech spark generator, and is simply a different kind of bomb detonator. Keep one or two in hummer all charged up via the alternator system and put them on the ground when you see a bomb. They go over to the bomb, generate a huge spark with the probe very close to the IED (like ligtning it will look for the nearest groud). And it simply fries the ciruits. Not really complicated. It's easy to generate several hundred kilovolts with some current behind it. One added benefit is that if the bomb is hardwired to detonator and someone has his hands on the detonator he's going to get a real tingling sensation ;)

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