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Subject: Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles
gf0012-aust    6/8/2004 9:40:41 AM
and now for something completely different.

I thought I'd start a thread on armoured vehicles that were niche specific and in real terms sitting ducks for an enemy.


Starting off with the Ontos. 4 Recoilless rifles mounted on an armoured letter box and fitted with tracks.

 
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eon    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 9:48:22 AM
There was a similar vehicle to Ontos used by the Japanese GSDF in the 1960s; two 105mm RRs on what looked a lot like a Bren Carrier, with the crew in an open-topped casemate. AFAIK, its only actual use was as background scenery in "Godzilla" movies. And let's not forget the U.S. M56 "Scorpion" airborne SPAT; a very tiny tracked vehicle mounting the same 90mm gun as the early M48 in a completely open mount. when it fired, the entire vehicle reared back like a wild horse. Not Army Ordnance's brightest idea..
 
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PuckaMan    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 10:07:48 AM
Didn't the Ontos have 6 RRs? Apparently, they were useful in 1968 Tet around Hue....... Pucka
 
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ambush    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 10:24:37 AM
The Ontos was never used in its designed for role- Anti-tank. However it was a good weapon system in Viet Nam, but that had more to do withe fine weapons mounted on it than the vehicle itself.
 
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ambush    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 10:25:45 AM
Starting off with the Ontos. 4 Recoilless rifles mounted on an armoured letter box and fitted with tracks. Actually it had six 106s mounted and a 3 cal machinegun
 
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gf0012-aust    Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles - Ontos - Pucka   6/8/2004 10:28:03 AM
The shots I've got are of a 4 stacker. maybe it's a custom job... ;)
 
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gf0012-aust    Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles - Ambush   6/8/2004 10:30:42 AM
see prev. maybe I've got an oddity here. It's a CONUS shot from a training area I think.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 11:20:58 AM
>>Starting off with the Ontos. 4 Recoilless rifles mounted on an armoured letter box and fitted with tracks.<< As others have noted, it worked okay in Vietnam as an infantry fire support vehicle. As an AT vehicle . . . not my cup of tea. The Duster would be in the same vein -- dual 40mm in an open mount. Not worth much at all as a AA vehicle (its intended role), but vicious for anti-personnel work, especially in Korea, where it wreaked a good deal of havoc alongside half-track dual and quad .50 cal mounts.
 
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OplotMira    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 12:33:48 PM
They used flechette rounds with these recoilless rifles didn't they? Nasty! Sincerely OplotMira
 
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AlbanyRifles    106 MM RR ROunds   6/8/2004 1:22:17 PM
Actually, they were cannister.
 
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RetiredCdnTanker    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/8/2004 2:05:32 PM
Methinks that the M60A2 should be added to this list with the ONTOS. And wasn't there an engineer version of the Centurion with a ridiculously large calibre howitzer, with a barrel about two feet long, with a range of something like 300 meters? AVRE or something like that...
 
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PuckaMan    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/9/2004 4:38:48 AM
I thought the 106 RR round were beehive, sort of cannister cros with FRAG........ couple into the side of a building and no more snipers......... I think the Brits took a few Centurion (may Chieftan) AVRE 155mm engineer vehilces to GW '91...... The Churchill AVRE in WW2 with the 280mm petard mortar was short range, but could remove the front of a large building in one shot, but had to be reloaded on the outside. I'll be Buggered if I'm doing that during a battle! Pucka
 
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eon    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles-Ontos, etc.   6/9/2004 10:19:11 AM
Ontos was issued with 6 105 RRs, but a friend of mine (USMC) who briefly crewed on one in Vietnam said they often took two off, usually the bottom one on each side, because it made reloading faster. (Less chance of tangling breech levers, I suppose.) The M60A2, aka the "Starship" for its odd looks and (for the '70s) sophisticated systems, was like the M551 Sheridan a victim of the 152mm Shillalagh debacle'. Like M551, every time you fired the regular 152mm HE round from the gun/launchet, the recoil shock knocked the sight sytem for the missile out of alignment. (In fact, on the Sheridan, it often plain wrecked the sight- unbolt it, bolt another one in, and recalibrate.) Another feature of the "Starship" that didn't endear it to its crews was the large flat vertical area on each turret side, made to order to be a target for an RPG or ATGW. AFAIK, most "Starships" were never issued to the troops in Europe as intended- they were kept Stateside, and eventually swapped their 152mm turrets for improved 105mm turrets, becoming the first batch of M60A3s..
 
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bombard    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles-Ontos, etc.   6/9/2004 10:38:24 AM
Was'nt there a WW2 tank from New Zeeland made of tin? Believe I've seen a picture, showing corrugated sides. During the war in the the Congo, the sepratists captured an old ford armoured car and tried to up armour it. Suspension broke, though.
 
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AlbanyRifles    USMC vehicle Can't remember its name and a few more   6/9/2004 1:28:35 PM
There was a small tracked logistics vehicle the USMC used which had pneumatic, inflatable road wheels. The one problem was when things like shell fragements and bullets hit it. You ended up with (I am not kidding) a tracked vehicle with flat tires! Every one of them at Khe Sahn were inop after the first few days. Vickers MAtilda I Bren Carrier with a Boys 55 caliber AT Rifle
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Fundamentally useless armoured vehicles   6/11/2004 10:48:14 PM
>>I think the Brits took a few Centurion (may Chieftan) AVRE 155mm engineer vehilces to GW '91...... The Churchill AVRE in WW2 with the 280mm petard mortar was short range, but could remove the front of a large building in one shot, but had to be reloaded on the outside. I'll be Buggered if I'm doing that during a battle!<< The Gulf War-era AVRE used the same 165mm demolition gun as the US M728 CEV (believe it was a British design) - thing only fired HESH (HEP for use Americans) and was very short legged as was noted earlier. Supposed to be quite a sight to see terminal effects on a building or bunker. In US service the 728s (based on M60 hulls) went away because they just couldn't keep up with the M1s and Brads. I think there may have also been a cost issue since it was fielded in small numbers which made various costs higher than they would be for M1s, etc. I've never heard much said about the gun -- good or bad -- in official US military stuff.
 
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