Future of warfare (armor, infantry)

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GI Joey RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry)...when? 4/28/2004 10:47:58 PM

The US Army's Futrure Combat system includes a lot of remote controlled vehicles both ground and airborne. If would go from 32 Bdes in 10 DIvs to 42 but decrease the number of bns to two per Bde, what do you accomplish?

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Clausewitz RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) 4/29/2004 5:17:56 AM

usa wrote: ". Even if tanks were still a major weapons platform, then wouldn't a "super heavy" infantry be a logical new force in the military (as the technology appears)?" I don't think that is an good idea to put infantry into IFV like the Bradley/Marder/Warrior/BMP .... These IFV are made for line of sight combat. If these IFV would be hit with PGM/tank fire/ATGW there will be up to 10 additional and unneccessary casualties (the Infantry on the vehicle). The future wíll see more none line of sight combat with PGM. The infantry will be carried with wheeled vehicles like the Stryker or the german/dutch Boxer (8X8 but with more than 30 tons) to give the infantry some shelter (against splinters, machine guns, some chain guns and small hend held anti armor wepons like the old RPG 7), mobility, suppllies for sustained combat and some saftey in a contaminated environment (NBC). Other - smaller - armored cars (like the german/dutch Fennek) will observe the battlefield and communicate detected enemies back to indirct fire platforms to cut loose their PGM. There is no need for very heavy infantry on the future battlefield.

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TheGreyBeard RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) 4/29/2004 2:31:45 PM

Umm...nice concept...except the Stryker won't be able to do any of the things you listed, except NBC protection. Hasn't anyone figured out that only Western Europe has developed hard road network? They are working on powered exoskeletons, in fact, USC recently completed a working lower half. Other things you might be interested in are: (all in either the testing stage, have been produced but are to costly to mass-produce, or are not rugged enough) 1. Bucky tubes (potential armor material) 2. Iron and Diamond whiskers (same as above) 3. Coil Guns 4. Pulse Cannon 5. Ramshell launcher And an experimental material known as Ring-Carbon, theoretically, one cm of ring-carbon is = to 100,000 cm of RHA.

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Clausewitz RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) 4/30/2004 4:15:54 AM

8X8 wheeled vehicles can be driven cross country if the terrain is no swamp or sand dune. On this terrain even tracked vehicles would have problems. After heavy rains on Europes fields even tracked vehicles have problems too. But 8X8 vehicles are very mobile cross country if not to heavy. The german/dutch Boxer (in development) will have a weight above 30 tons. This vehicle will resist RPG 7 head on and on the sides. Maybe the Stryker is to light. And maybe new technologies will help to achiéve acceptable armor protection (not against high velicity guns, ATGW and PGM) with 20 tons too.

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usa RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) 5/2/2004 9:51:20 AM

Clausewitz wrote: --- "usa wrote: ". Even if tanks were still a major weapons platform, then wouldn't a "super heavy" infantry be a logical new force in the military (as the technology appears)?" I don't think that is an good idea to put infantry into IFV like the Bradley/Marder/Warrior/BMP .... These IFV are made for line of sight combat...The future wíll see more none line of sight combat with PGM....There is no need for very heavy infantry on the future battlefield." ---- But won't more and more future combat involve LOS fighting? I mean, look at the last two wars. There has been alot of BVR combat, but there always is intense visual range combat. Don't we want a heavy, armored exoskeleton type suit to better protect and server our infanrymen?

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Clausewitz RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) 5/2/2004 11:50:15 AM

usa wrote: "But won't more and more future combat involve LOS fighting? I mean, look at the last two wars. There has been alot of BVR combat, but there always is intense visual range combat. Don't we want a heavy, armored exoskeleton type suit to better protect and server our infanrymen" There will always be some LOS combat. Especially in counter insurgency / peacekeeping operations. But that has nothing to do with visual range. The special forces in Afghanistan had their targets within visual range. But they did not fought these targets with LOS weapons but with PGM delivered by CAS. So a modern army will detect enemy targets within and beyond visual range. But all these targets could be destroyed by indirect fire PGM (CAS, mortars, artillery, missiles, rockets). This way they don't have to expose themselves to enemy LOS-fire. The best way to avoid enemy fire is situational awareness combined with none line of sight PGM. The infantry should not fight from the vehicles they use but dismounted. Otherwise there would be a great risk to be targeted by enemy PGM. And one hit would mean a squad killed. The last wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were not fought against first line countrys. Even if the insurgents in Iraq just would have modern hand held anti armor weapons the coalition forces would be in serious trouble. Same for the israelis in the gaza strip and the west bank. Modern versions of the RPG with a tandem warhead or modern western weapons like the german Panzerfaust 3 would take a heavy tall on coaltion forces. Infantry riding in M 113/Strykers/Bradleys/Warriors would be doomed if hit with such weapons. The answer ? Accurate recconaissane and good situtional awareness or heavy prep firepower. The second can not be used in urban areas. Speed and fireing concealing fog may help.

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OplotMira RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) Expect more LOS weapons! 5/2/2004 12:10:49 PM

I guess LOS weapons will still be a very important on the modern battlefield, if not only because they are so resistant to Hi-Tech countermeasures. Sincerely OplotMira

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Clausewitz RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) Expect more LOS weapons! 5/3/2004 9:59:59 AM

OplotMira wrote: "I guess LOS weapons will still be a very important on the modern battlefield, if not only because they are so resistant to Hi-Tech countermeasures." Yes. There will be some LOS weapons on the future battlefiel. But they are for a back up and they won't be decicive weapons like today. And they will remain to be useful in peacekeeping/counterinsurgency operations. But main operations will be decided by PGM. Delivered by indirect fire platforms.

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OplotMira RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) Expect more LOS weapons! 5/3/2004 2:44:05 PM

Clausewitz wrote: "Yes. There will be some LOS weapons on the future battlefield. But they are for a back up and they won't be decicive weapons like today. And they will remain to be useful in peacekeeping/counterinsurgency operations. But main operations will be decided by PGM. Delivered by indirect fire platforms." *** This is presuming that most warfare in the future will occur between armies equipped for this high-tech (and presumably high-cost) conventional scenario. The present development in the world however, points to the fact that the majority of conflicts today don't exactly materialise themselves in huge (or even limited) conventional wars between high-tech industrial powers. Conflict today occurs mainly between poor countries in the developed world, (or between high-tech armies and low-tech armies/guerillas) and is highly assymetrical in nature. Seeing that this developement will likely persist in the future, I predict that any simple and potent LOS weapons will have much more of a decisive effect on tomorrow's wars and battlefields than any guided PGM weapon or "smart" weapons-system. This is simply because they (the RPG-7 is the prime example.) are so well suited to this kind of warfare. I also predict that the war of tomorrow will be more manpower focused (not only as in training, tactics and motivation, but in psycological/ideological preparation as well) than hardware focused. This is mainly because the wars of the future will be a lot more about winning mentaly, psycologically and moraly then purely militarily. Sincerely OplotMira

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Clausewitz RE:Future of warfare (armor, infantry) Expect more LOS weapons! 5/4/2004 10:04:25 AM

Oplot_Mira wrote: "Seeing that this developement will likely persist in the future, I predict that any simple and potent LOS weapons will have much more of a decisive effect on tomorrow's wars and battlefields than any guided PGM weapon or "smart" weapons-system. This is simply because they (the RPG-7 is the prime example.) are so well suited to this kind of warfare." There is some truth in your post. But even guerrillas/insurgents will get modern hand held anti armor and man portable SAM weapons. To use old fashioned mech. infantry/tanks/helicopters against them could be costly. Modern observation tools and PGM as an add up could be very useful in such situations. But in general you are right. Counter insurgency/guerrilla opertions will need many boots on the ground. And there will be a lot of LOS combat too.

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