T64, Soviets worst tank?

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Kozzy RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 9:29:56 AM

The T-64 is considered to be superior to the T-72 which was basically a mass produced, cheaper, export version of the T-64.

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mike_golf RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 10:52:31 AM

The T64 had the ability to fire the commander's HMG while buttoned up, significantly improved armor compared to the LeoI, M60, AMX30, etc. that it would face at the time, good mobility, and the 125mm gun was fairly comparable to the 105mm rifled gun in service with NATO at the time. NATO long rod penetrator technology was in its infancy. The T64 was never exported because of its technology and capabilities, not because it was a failure. In the 1970's NATO was very worried about the T64 and working hard to get new tank designs like Leo2, Challenger and Abrams into service.

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jofredes RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 11:13:18 AM

But if it has never been in use, despite the fact that all the other tanks have seen use, I think is a proof that it is a failure.

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mike_golf RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 11:34:33 AM

The fact that the T64 never saw combat is only proof that the Soviets didn't export the tank. When I say that the T64 was on par with or better than the NATO tanks of the same generation I'm speaking as a US Army Master Gunner. Where exactly the intel came from I don't know, and wouldn't say if I did. But, based on the intel available to me in the early to mid 1980's I can state that the T64 was a major concern to NATO. We believed the tank was not exported because the Soviets did not want to allow anyone access to the technology, which was pretty good for its day.

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jofredes RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 1:15:01 PM

I don't have the third world wars in mind when I'm talking about combat experience. Soviet Union fought in Afghanistan, and Russia has fought in Georgia, Moldavia and Chechnya. There has also been wars in Armenia and Azerbadjan etc. and the t64 hasn't been used in any of these wars, why?

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Horsesoldier RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 3:08:39 PM

All those conflicts were counter-insurgency operations, where a top-end anti-tank sort of tank was uncalled for. T-72 is fine, a cheaper, for such conflicts -- and T-55 and -62 really work well enough. The Soviets/Russians have a rather different situation in terms of their arsenal, both in range of capabilities as well as control of the media and public opinion than the west. The M60A3 (if any were still in service) would pretty much be a fine tank for the current action in Iraq, but public opinion would be unpleasantly riled at the thought of American servicemen going into action in anything but the best protected and most advanced tanks we have to offer (though this was not always the case -- i.e. the use of M48s in Vietnam rather than M60). Unlike the US, the Russians have mountains of older tanks, and a military-social relationship that allows them to send such tanks into action without public outcry.

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mike_golf RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/1/2004 3:38:05 PM

The T64 was an excellent tank design. No Western military would have ever designed it, but it met all of the Soviet design criteria and exceeded most of them. However, it was expensive. When NATO began its buildup of equipment and technology in the mid-70's the Soviets faced a real problem. They simply didn't have the skilled labor force and cash flow needed to continue to design, produce and improve tanks like the T64. Not at the same time as they were also trying to keep up on missiles, aircraft, naval vessels, etc. They took the T-72, a newer, although cheaper, design and made it their primary platform outside the GSFG. It was one of the first signs that the Soviet system was cracking under the pressure of competing with the West. By 1980 the Soviets were fielding their limited numbers of much better T64's in the GSFG to face the new NATO systems coming on line. The T72, much cheaper and easier to produce than the T64, was fielded in Afghanistan and sold in large numbers as an export vehicle. Trust me, this information is backed by good intel and was well understood within NATO during the 1980's. You have to understand the situation that the USSR was in during the late years of the Cold War is what led to the T72 seeing wide use and the T64 seeing no combat use whatsoever. The T64 would have performed quite a bit better than the T72. This was confirmed after the fall of the USSR. Several T64, T72 and T80 tanks were acquired by the US and brought to Aberdeen Proving Grounds, where they underwent rigorous testing. Master Gunners (hint about source of my knowledge), engineers and tank crewman got a chance to get their hands on the vehicles and see what their real capabilities were. Hopefully you will take my word for it that the T64 outclasses the T72.

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MikkoLn RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/2/2004 8:14:45 AM

"But if it has never been in use, despite the fact that all the other tanks have seen use, I think is a proof that it is a failure " Oh god, here we go again... but actually this is a pretty good example of why we can't judge if equipment is good or bad in the name of "combat experience" (how many dozens of times I've seen this already). Mike_golf has the points there, so read them. It was the premier MBT if compared with T72 of the time. Should it have been a failure, why do you think that such a massive number of them were produced? Totalling alone more than all AMX30?s, Leopard I?s and Chieftains (including all export ones) produced, it was still not enough for soviets (gives a fine example of what their goals and requirements were compared with rest of the world). Simultaneously they built also T55?s/62?s and T72?s (of which twice the number of T64?s were eventually built!), so the total number of tanks produced was second to none, actually nowhere near. Should it have been a failure, do you think that soviets would have thought twice of going into biggest possible T72 output, after all it was cheaper to build. But T64 production was continued until early 80?s, a decade after first T72?s were available. But even if such a big production numbers could be achieved with sophisticated T64, soviets were used to keep it simple and cost effective and foremost Army ground troops called for greatest possible numbers (opting for T72). Result was a halfway between top-end T64 and cheap T72, which still had loosely the same performance ? or not at least highly inferior ? as T64. T64 haven?t been deployed in combat, but only conclusion that I can possibly draw is that this is the case not because it was bad, but because it was good. T64 was mainly deployed to Guards tank armies located in Poland and East Germany, ready to take the biggest burden of the fight against NATO troops in Central Europe (area where all the best available force and technology was directed) during the 70?s and 80?s. Everyone can reason out if it?s the place for the worst rather than the best equipment available.

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MikkoLn RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/2/2004 8:17:04 AM

And yes, it's still being used, Ukraine for example has made extensive upgrade programs for them.

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Jack Tar RE:T64, Soviets worst tank? 2/2/2004 8:42:37 AM

Wasn't there an automotive problem with the T-64? I don't know the details, but believe there was a problem with either the engine or transmission, or both?(It sounded like something not easily resolved))

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