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Subject: Re Shermans/Firefly
Vark    5/23/2002 5:45:47 PM
Yeah Fred the Germans had two nicknames that described the Shermans vulnerability to fire, Tommy kettle, and Ronson (from the contemporary ad campaigns slogan "lights first time"). When I was in Canada I went to the Canadian war museum, v. interesting and a reminder of the contribution the country made. V . good mouse mat reproductions of famous war art (at the moment I'm using one with Lawren Harris' "Reinforcements Moving Up in the Ortona Salient") a sobering reminder everytime I use my Dell of the reality of war. When I finish my three pending books I'll look out for those two books , if you hav'nt got a copy, beg, borrow or steal McKee's "Caen-Anvil of Victory" very powerful narrative backed up by first hand accounts. Interesting comment about "garbage" as one historian wrote. "If the Americans had been as good as they said they were, The British as bad as they said they were, and the Germans as good as everyone said they were, the Battle of Normandy could not have been fought as it was." Note to Elbandeedo and thanks Fred the 17 Pdr had one weakness an HE shell was only developed in late 44, reducing its support role, also its bow 30 calibre MG was removed (due to the bulky 17 Pdr ammo) further increasing its vulnerability to tank hunting teams.......Swede
 
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Fred    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/23/2002 10:22:13 PM
Firefly was a brilliant improvisation by the British. I like to think it's finest moment was when a Firefly from a British Regiment cremated Michael Wittman.
 
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Vark    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/24/2002 7:08:15 PM
I agree Fred, and well done to Trooper Ekins 3 troop 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (12:55 Aug 8 1944 St Aignan-De-Cramesnil).............Swede
 
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Pete S    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/24/2002 8:41:34 PM
Who was Michael Wittman?
 
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Fred    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/25/2002 11:28:50 AM
He was German SS tank commander. Touted in their press as a tank ace. He led at an attack at Villers Bocage in Normandy that destroyed a large number of British armoured vehicles. He was also quite successful on the Russian front. He led an attack in Normandy in a tiger and his tank was destoyed by a Firefly. There were no survivors. He was held up as an example of the Aryan superman by their press. Sometimes in armoured forums there is endless strings of how great German armoured forces were and how rotten ours were. Wittmans name comes out in these discussion frequently.
 
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Pete S    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/25/2002 6:25:09 PM
Thanks, Fred.
 
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Fred    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   5/25/2002 8:50:40 PM
No worries.
 
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Maple Leaf    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   4/22/2003 1:23:29 AM
Vark: I was just interested in where you got your information regarding the regiment that killed Wittmann. I'm not questioning you, I would just like to read more on it. My only real knowledge of the incident is from the book "D-DAY, an illistrated history. From the beaches to the Liberation of France." It has a very brief biography on Wittmann and it says, quote "He was killed in action along with his crew when surrounded by Canadian tanks fighting south of Caen on August 8, 1944." I'm just curious which acount is accurate.
 
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Vark    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   4/23/2003 6:24:50 PM
Sorry about the delay life got in the way!! The info was from "Tiger Ace" by Gary Simpson 1994, pub. Schiffer Military History (LCCN) 93-84858. Warning if you are going to read it the proof reader had a nap and the author swallows the Nazi ubermenschen propaganda uncritically. Having said that he seems to be one of the only 'historians' to do some cross checking. Of course the Germans claimed Wittmann was killed by a Typhoon or a 5.5" shell but the evidence seems pretty clear. Talking of Nazi propaganda recent research shows that Wittmann's greatest exploit at Villers- Bocage suggests alot of the vehicles claimed destroyed were infact abandoned by the sensible crews who hid, rather like the Iraqi's then and now.
 
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Heorot    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   4/25/2003 6:52:29 AM
True about avoiding Wittman. The allied column was travelling down a hill in a sunken lane and Wittman waited until the first vehicle was at the bottom before destroying it. He then destroyed the last that he could see in the column.He then proceeded to destroy the trapped vehicles one by one. Most were abandoned by their crews. Shermans out of sight over the hill had to deploy out of the lane and around the village. One Sherman on the main street turned into a front garden when it saw Wittman's Tiger coming round the corner. Wittman didn't see him. The Allied tanker saw the tiger dead in front of him sideways on at point blank range but still didn't fire as he didn't think his gun would penetrate the Tiger from that angle. Wittman stopped and reversed back up the street, never having seen the Sherman, and the allied tankers breathed a sigh of relief. The end of Wittman was inevitable. His Tiger was too slow to escape the village. He finally took up position on a knoll and fought until the Firefly got him.
 
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Vark    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   4/25/2003 9:54:50 AM
I think they were Cromwells as he ambushed the lead elements of the 4th County of London Yeomanry, though confronting a Tiger in either with the 75L40 must have been nerve wracking. When he returned to Villers-Bocage with two more Tigers and a Pz IVH he narrowly escape a stalking Sherman Firefly and Cromwell. After losing all his supporting armour Wittmann's Tiger was disabled by a flank shot from a 6pdr belonging to The Queens Regiment. Three weeks later his Tiger no 007 was brewed up (a catastrophic internal explosion blew the turret off) by a Firefly. Although Wittmann was undoubtably a first rate tank commander one wonders how many of his 138 claimed kills were genuine and how were abandoned vehicles. All the Allies, even to an extent the Russians, were wary of creating tank aces, the feeling was that a tank, unlike a fighter, was rarely operating alone in combat and that many kills should be shared between vehicles or weapon systems. Check out Michael Reynold's "The Devil's Adjutant" for how claims made by tankers, although sincere, could be very misleading. Post-battle examination of the 73 Eastings battlesite by US specialists conclusively proved a significant portion of Iraqi armour claimed as killed had been evacuated by their crews or damaged previously by air and artillery strikes.
 
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Condor Legion    RE:Michael Wittmann   4/25/2003 6:18:44 PM
No complaints or judgements about any of the previously posted posts...But... Bruce Quarrie's book, "Hitlers Teutonic Knights" (1987) pg 33-38 states that "Wittmann himself was killed shortly afterwards when his own Tiger was surrounded by five Allied Shermans. His body lay in an unmarked grave until 1983 when it was reinterred with proper military honors in the cemetery at La Cambe." Clearly SS Leibstandarte Division was facing British 7th Armored Division at the time, but Quarrie was reluctant (in 1987) to identify which smaller unit actually killed Wittmann and I've often wondered why, if not for the obvious difficulties involved in "who shot who" post any battle. Otherwise it's a very good book on the SS armored divisions in WW2, chock full of rare photos, including of Wittmann, his crew, and his Tiger... OPERATION GOODWOOD, CL
 
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Vark    RE:Michael Wittmann   4/28/2003 2:11:26 PM
Although Gary Simpson's book is riddled with grammatical errors and spelling disasters i.e. "Russian Navel troops " sic (obviously no stomach for a fight hehehehe) he does give the best account of the destruction of Wittmanns Tiger. As I wasn't there, more's the pity, I can only state what my opinion is. The German explanation of a shell/rocket suffers from usual problem of the Germanic instance that any of their aces can never be killed by the same weapon system they are operating. Thus Red Baron shot down by AA not another pilot, Wittmann etc. As for being surrounded by 5 Shermans I wonder if a commander of such apparent repute commanding four Tigers would allow himself to get into such a situation? If you see photos of the wreck it is in open fields broken by tree lined roads and small hedges. Again if anyone has any info to shed anymore light on the issue please reply.
 
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Maple Leaf    RE:Michael Wittmann   5/19/2003 2:15:28 PM
I did a little more research after reading the different versions presented here. On June 10, 1944 Wittmann was engaged with tanks of the British 7th Armoured Division near Villers-Bocage. It appears to be the 4th County of London Yeomanry regiment in Cromwell tanks. Wittmann destroyed the 4 tanks of the regimental headquarters and then ambushed their lead squadron. When the Germans withdrew to rearm and refuel, the British recovered. When Wittmann came forward into the village later in the afternoon his tank was hit by an anti-tank gun and blew a track. The British had already lost 27 tanks and withdrew as well. Wittmann and his crew escaped unharmed. On August 7th, 1944 during Operation Totalize II Canadian Corps of the First Canadian Army aimed at Falaise. Five Sherman tanks of an unknown Canadian regiment of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division engaged Wittmann's tank at close range and destroyed it, killing Wittmann and his crew. I tend to believe this account, primarily because it comes from a British book. You would think they would try to take credit for the kill if there was any doubt.
 
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Dillon    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   7/3/2003 3:42:25 AM
Thought I'd drop back to the original thread. The Firefly was the second allied tank to mount the 17 pounder. The first was the Australian AC4 which was faster (33%), better armoured, and had a greater operational range (200%). It was also shorter so less of a target to AT guns. Unfortunately the project was dropped in favour of mass-produced Shermans.
 
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MikkoL    RE:Re Shermans/Firefly   7/3/2003 8:19:24 AM
The australian AC4 was purely a prototype-only, but the brits also produced the Challenger before Firefly appeared. If I remember right there were also other experimental tanks with 17pdrs during -43, but I can't recall which one(s) were used for that. Can search it out somewhere though...
 
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