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Subject: Merkava Mk V the finest tank in the world
ZealousZionist    11/21/2003 6:33:26 PM
With all due respect to the supporters of the Abrams, Challenger, Leopard and LeClerc, the finest tank in the world today is the Merkava Mk 4. Not only does it have one of the most sophisticated fire control systems out there (that even allows the tankers to bring down a helo with the main gun system), but its modular armour system provides the best defence out there, including against top attack ATGMs. Compare the flanks of the Abrams, Challenger, Leo2 and LeClerc to the Merkava Mk4. During the mid 1990s a couple of Merkava Mk 2 were destroyed in Lebanon by Spandrel ATGMs that hit the side of the turret. The Israelis learned from this and upgraded their late model Mk 3 and Mk 4 Merkavas with a new armour package that renders the flanks of the tank impervious to ATGMS. Also, note the fact that the turret roof of the Mk 4 has been heavily up armoured to protect against top attack ATGMS like the TOW-2b. The Israelis did away with the loader's hatch, and the only opening on the turret top is now the commander's cupola, which has been substantially reinforced. It's simple really, Jewish ingenuity combined with the fact that Israel has the most extensive combat experience of any nation equal the finest MBT in existance today
 
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bsl    RE:Response to WDDavenport   11/25/2003 7:01:46 PM
Actually, as a matter of cost effectiveness, I'd be much more interested in converting those old, captured MBTs to heavy APCs than messing about with Merkavas. I can see some specific instances in which it might make some sense to offload ammunition. Still, on the whole, you wouldn't want to limit the use of MBTs in the kind of situations where a superheavy APC would be needed. It would be precisely those instances when fire is heaviest that you'd want MBTs free to engage the enemy. OTOH, if you have enough room in those old Soviet hulls to hold a squad, and can make provision for them to enter and exit the vehicle easily (i.e. the rear door, a la Merkava or APC, rather than a narrow hatchway), then there's reason to invest in a significant number of conversions. No one else has heavy APCs, at all, as far as I know.
 
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Heorot    RE:Response to WDDavenport   11/26/2003 9:00:04 AM
The big problem with converting conventional tank hull to the APC role is that they all have the engies in the back so rear doors are out. Unless you can put egress doors at the front, then exiting out of the top where the turret used to be is the only option. You then have your infantry horribly exposed 8 ft off the ground and they then have to get off the top while carrying a full combat load. Broken ankles anyone?
 
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aceofw    RE:Response to WDDavenport   11/26/2003 11:33:58 AM
It's may be a big problem, but it's already done: link
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Response to WDDavenport   11/26/2003 11:41:04 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the Israelis used a new powerpack which allowed putting a rear access tunnel on the conversions.
 
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WDDavenport    Achzarit looks like a stupid stinker   11/26/2003 5:58:11 PM
That little tunnel-like contrivance on the right rear of the Ach-Charz-it is the mech infantry squad's main pathway in and out of the vehcile? That is stupid. Israeli brainpower isn't what it used to be if the IDF has spent time, effort, and US taxpayer's money to concoct that stinker. [ RE:Response to WDDavenport 11/26/2003 11:33:59 AM [It's may be a big problem, but it's already done: link ]
 
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WinsettZ    RE:WDDavenport's unparalleled eloquence   11/26/2003 6:28:42 PM
It won't be easy to "pile out" of that particular APC without using top-hatches if that rear exit is the only one, and it being so small. With Bradley/M113s multiple persons can pile out quickly, as the vehicle is going to be a target in the milliseconds afterwards. Even so, the concept of converting tanks has merit. The Russians converted old T-55s to APCs. The only problem is that they're a bit slow, which doesn't mean much in the streets of Gronzy where every tank is moving at a crawl to hunt for enemies.
 
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SYSOP1    To ZealousZionist from SysOps   11/26/2003 6:32:16 PM
It appears that you are too zealous in your response to the 5:58 PM post of WDDavenport's critique of the Achzarit. We have read his post, and don't see any evidence of anti-Semitic language or intent in the nature of his post. He has critisized Israeli design efforts, and acknowleges past successes. We have therefore deleted your post. SysOps - please watch your accusations. We are more Zealous in our deletions that you are in your posts. You may want to reconsider reposting, without the vitriolic language.
 
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PuckaMan    Merkava the Best? Debatable....   11/26/2003 6:43:44 PM
I would like to reiterate the point that Israel develops stuff for Israel - that is, the Merkava is the result of Israeli experience and development, to be used in and around Israel. The Merkava is a superb tank. Make no mistake. But the Best? Dunno. Everyone has an opinion on the best tank, and the debate will probably never see and end. The Merkava isn't really exportable, it was designed to suit Israeli needs, and that it does. At most, the Israelis can export concepts, which they do with great effect. As for Israeli experience in Armour, It is safe to say they are unequaled.
 
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ZealousZionist    RE:To ZealousZionist from SysOps   11/26/2003 6:56:20 PM
So let me get this straight - WDDavenport can accuse Israelis of being stupid and of diminished brainpower, and that's fine. But, when I respond with an observation that the vitriol that characterizes his attacks against things Israeli reeks of anti-semitism, you take umbrage and excise my post. Very curious. Very curious indeed. The simple fact of the matter is that in current political discourse pure anti-semitism often cloaks itself in the guise of anti-Zionism. Go back and peruse Davenport's posts. Take not in particular of his particularly vitriolic attitude towards Israel. Methinks that his hostile comments go well beyond reasoned criticism of Israel and into the realm of something less respectable and more malign. If it waddles like an duck.....
 
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ZealousZionist    In re the Israeli Air Force, quod erat demonstrandum   11/26/2003 6:57:15 PM
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 09/22/2003 6:18 AM PDT Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday. The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans flying Mig-29 Fulcrums by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added. Both the German MiG 29 Fulcrum and the Israeli Eagle have a helmet-mounted sight that is the envy of the Americans, and the Israeli Elbit DASH system on the F-15 is regarded as probably the best in the world. Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft. The Boeing F-15I is largely based on the American F-15E Strike Eagle, as a consequence of which it too has the APG-70 radar, albeit a slightly constrained export version. However, the Israelis have installed a lot of hardware and software systems of their own, including highly effective electronic warfare (EW) equipment. With the highly agile Python 4 missile, they can even fire around corners. The exercise was conducted over the past two weeks in the skies of Sardinia in Italy. Israel's air force has held exercises with the United States and Turkey recently.
 
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