Merkava Mk V the finest tank in the world

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bsl RE:Response to Questions 11/22/2003 6:29:19 PM

The mortar is tied into the main gun's computerized fire system? And, is auto-stabilized? If not, it's useless when the tank is in motion. And, what's it's range? A 50 caliber co-axial mg is good to about 1000 meters, IIRC. The mortar and coax aren't really interchangable. You use the mg for targets in line of sight, or which are moving (since you can hose them with fire, which makes up for a lack of automatic aiming aids). The mortar, otoh, is good for targets in defilade, but wouldn't be much use if either the tank or the target is in motion. I'm not dogmatic about "offense" versus "defense" since there's a lot of overlap. Still, the mortar seems an essentially defensive weapon, to protect a tank which has stopped, or, especially dug in.

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Horsesoldier Mortar 11/22/2003 6:35:52 PM

>>Moreover, the 60mm mortar on the Merkava is just as much an offensive as a defensive weapon. The mortar provides the tank with an infantry suppression capability beyond the range of its coax, and at a far cheaper cost than using the main gun for that task. Moreover, the mortar allows a Merkava unit to hit enemy troops that are in defilade because of the high trajectory fire of the 60mm. The Merkava is the only tank in the world to have such an integral mortar system.<< And the inclusion of the 60mm mortar slightly offsets the IDF's traditional neglect of artillery. The Merkava uses the 60mm for the same sort of roles the M1, Leo2, and Challenger 2 use 155mm SP guns for. Nobody else fields one, because everybody else expects their combined arms teams to include adequate indirect fire assets.

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Horsesoldier RE:60mm mortar -- BSL 11/22/2003 6:43:27 PM

>>Not a lack of artillery, in the large sense. A variety of potential engagment scenarios in which a tank or tanks might be short of artillery, or infantry support, or, just generally badly outnumbered by attackers including infantry. Again, review how the '73 War began for examples << This is a false assertion -- it's rather like saying that since I don't own a shotgun, it is natural to assume that I have to be outgunned by a thief breaking into my house armed with a shotgun. I'm only outgunned because I opted not to buy a shotgun, not because of the inherent nature of a scenario when a thief breaks into a house. The IDF has traditionally been weak on combined arms concepts, aided and abetted in no small part because their opponents are too incompetent to make them pay for that weakness -- and aided by the fact that the IDF is flexible enough to adapt when tanks can't carry the day by themselves (i.e. operations in Lebanon). However, it's hard to adapt on the fly in regards to big ticket weapons systems like SP artillery pieces.

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Horsesoldier MPAT round 11/22/2003 6:54:00 PM

>>The M-1 was going to carry an MPAT munition with a proximity fuze for this purpose before the program was bumped.<< I was under the impression that MPAT had been used in Iraqi Freedom, with generally good results (of course it was only being used against land targets).

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ZealousZionist RE:Mortar 11/22/2003 9:05:24 PM

Ok.... responding to questions. The Merkava's 60mm mortar is not stabalized and cannot be fired on the move. It is used when the Merkava is used as a base of fire while other units advance against the enemy. It has a range of roughly 3,000 meters. It is true that the IDF has traditionally had a relatively weak artillery arm, especially when compared to the Arab armies that operate on the basis of Russian doctrine. A Russian style Syrian brigade, for example, has its own integral artillery battalion, usually of D-30 122mm howitzers. The Israelis traditionally compensated for their weak arty arm with airpower, given that the IAF is certainly the best airforce in the region, and arguably in the world. Yet, in recent years the Israeli army has done a lot to upgrade its artillery arm, acquiring many more M-109 Palladins and MLRS systems. The integration of the 60mm mortar into the Merkava had less to do with a lack of artillery, and more to do with a desire to give maneouver units an integral indirect fire capability of their own. In order to carry 8 infantrymen, the Merkava must remove all its maingun ammunition except its 12 ready rounds. Thus, if a platoon of tanks were designated to serve in the infantry-carrying role (in MOUT, for example) it would have to be accompanied by another platoon with a full complement of ammo in case serious trouble were encountered. But, isn't that the nature of combined arms ops? Makes sense to me.

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WDDavenport Zealous Zionist believes too much of the local hype 11/22/2003 9:51:57 PM

[The Merkava's 60mm mortar is not stabalized and cannot be fired on the move.] True. [ It is used when the Merkava is used as a base of fire while other units advance against the enemy. It has a range of roughly 3,000 meters.] In other words, Merkava tanks have to act as their own mortar or arty fire support units because the Israeli army/IDF is weak in indirect fire support. I don't see how making the Merkavas double up as both tanks and mortar fire support is an overall advantage in warfighting capability compared to an army that has both tanks and indirect fire support. By the way, don't some of the newer Rooskie ATGM's advertise a range fo 4,000 meters or so? [It is true that the IDF has traditionally had a relatively weak artillery arm, especially when compared to the Arab armies that operate on the basis of Russian doctrine. A Russian style Syrian brigade, for example, has its own integral artillery battalion, usually of D-30 122mm howitzers.] Yes, and American, British, or German doctrine specifies more artillery than the Israeli army uses. This is nothing to brag about for Israel. [The Israelis traditionally compensated for their weak arty arm with airpower, given that the IAF is certainly the best airforce in the region, and arguably in the world. ] Arguably, the IAF is not the best air force in the world. The IAF does have the world's best aircraft, all paid for by the US taxpayer. [Yet, in recent years the Israeli army has done a lot to upgrade its artillery arm, acquiring many more M-109 Palladins and MLRS systems.] Good. [The integration of the 60mm mortar into the Merkava had less to do with a lack of artillery, and more to do with a desire to give maneouver units an integral indirect fire capability of their own. ] No, that is Israeli excuse-making for its lack of sufficient artillery and mortar fire support. [In order to carry 8 infantrymen, the Merkava must remove all its maingun ammunition except its 12 ready rounds. Thus, if a platoon of tanks were designated to serve in the infantry-carrying role (in MOUT, for example) it would have to be accompanied by another platoon with a full complement of ammo in case serious trouble were encountered. ] In other words, the Merkava cannot do both the MBT's job and the ICV's job very well at the same time. To use a Merkava to carry a small eight man infantry squad, ammunition has to be unloaded from the Merkava. This is NOT an advantage to brag about. [But, isn't that the nature of combined arms ops?] No, the nature of proper combined arms teams is to have a balanced mixture of tanks, artillery, and mechanized infantry riding in an armored vehicle optimized for the Infantry Carrier Vehicle role. Using the Merkava as a main battle tank, an infantry carrier, and a mortar carrier -- maybe trying to do all three roles at the same tiem -- is nothing to boast about. Trying to make one vehicle do all three roles is a perversion of the combined arms concept, adn this perversion would fail if the IDF had to fight someone besides A-rubs. [Makes sense to me ] You're not as smart as you you are, Mr. Zealous Zionist. Maybe the IDF is and always has been overrated. The IDF has been blessed with incompetent main force opponents.

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ZealousZionist Response to WDDavenport 11/24/2003 9:15:30 PM

While I can overlook Davenport's hostile attitude, his lackluster grammar is less forgiveable. Yet, one can't help wondering why a simple discussion of the merits of the Merkava brings out such personal invective animus. But, to the substance of his posts. I've admitted that the Israeli army was traditionally weak in indirect fire support. This is a shortcoming that has been substantially rectified in recent years. As far as the IAF goes, I would definitely contend that the Israeli Air Force is the world's finest. Israeli pilot training is substantially more rigorous, with a much higher washout rate, than pilot training in the US, UK and other nations. It is generally accepted, even in the US military that, pilot for pilot, the Israelis are a cut above. Case in point the only air to air training exercise in recent years to be conducted by the IAF and US Navy 6th fleet pilots resulted in a 14 to 1 kill ratio in favour of the Israelis. This was reported in a US Air Force magazine in 1999. In fact, the lopsided results were so embarassing that all joint training since then has been conducted with combined US/Israel teams fighting each other. Certainly the US has capabilities that the IAF lacks, such as long range strategic bombardment. But, pound for pound the IAF is the finest tactical air force in the world, bar none. There's no reason why tank units shouldn't have an integral indirect fire capability to complement direct and indirect support arty units to the rear. It allows tanks to hit targets that are impervious to high velocity main gun fire (units dug in on a reverse slope, for example). It isn't a zero sum proposition, but a mutually reinforcing one. Moreover, in a fight with a competent opponent who has sophisticated anti-satellite and electronic warfare capabilities, one might not always be able to keep in contact with one's designated direct support arty unit. So, why not have a little pocket arty on hand? Couldn't hurt. In regard to the limited ammunition carried by Merkavot (Hebrew plural) in the infantry carrying role, on a high intensity battlefield I'd much rather be in a Merkava than a Bradley or any other IFV any day. The only thing that will allow mechanized infantry to advance with tanks relatively freely in a high intensity fight is a vehicle that is as heavily armoured as a tank. This is why the IDF has begun to convert captured T-55s/62s, as well as old centurions, into heavy APCS. They take off the turret, uparmour the hull with modern composite armour, and there you have it, the world's only APC that is as heavily armoured as the tank component of the mechanized task force. For all the sophisticated weaponry of the Bradley, when push comes to shove there's no getting around the fact that it still has the same sort of aluminum armour as the old 113. I wouldn't want to be riding around in one of those in the middle of a serious armoured battle. And, as for me being taken in by the hype, I speak from personal experience as an IDF officer with substantial bouts of combat duty under my belt. So, if anyone here is a Walter Mitty wannabe, I'm not it.

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TownHall TALD ,DELILAH, POPEYE ,Harpy ,Arrow ,Green Pine .... 11/25/2003 7:38:17 AM

The Israeli Air Force and the Israeli Defense Industries The Israeli Defense Industries share close and mutual relations with the Israeli Air Force. The Israeli Defense Industries? involvement and understanding of the IAF?s operational requirements, grants the IAF all weather, front and deep target destruction capabilities while successfully integrating IDF ground forces. The IAF operates on first class weaponry belonging to the elite of the world market: advanced intelligence UAVs to collect visual information, their most distinctive advantage is experience. Each UAV developed by the Israeli industries plays, in one way or another, an active role in the IAF. The ?TALD? and ?DELILAH? decoys compel the enemy to waste its air defense resources; the ?POPEYE? significantly improves the ability to destroy static quality targets, the special refueling technologies provide the IAF with long range operational capability while the ARM systems allow swift destruction of radar and other means of transmission. The ?Harpy?, long-distance motion detectors, all weather SAR pods and the ?Lightning?, are only the tip of the iceberg when mentioning Israeli systems complimenting the world market. All these are the direct result of the cooperation between the IAF and the industries. The climax of this cooperation is, without a doubt, the Israeli ?Arrow? project ? The most advanced system in the world to intercept ballistic missiles. The system is currently deployed in several operational batteries in the IAF, designed to deal with multiple missiles fired simultaneously from different areas. The system?s radar, ?Green Pine?, can identify and track missiles from launch to the area of impact. This ability has proven itself reliable more than once. usatoday.com : U.S. military employs Israeli technology in Iraq war the U.S. military is permeated by technology developed in Israel ? from the Army's Hunter drones to the targeting systems on the U.S. Marines' Harrier jets to the fuel tanks on its F-15 fighters. It would be hard to find a modern military that manages without technology developed by the Jewish state's feisty industry U.S. Air Force ? at ground targets. The precision-guided Popeyes were designed by Rafael, a company partially owned by the government of Israel. Israeli-designed Hunter unmanned aerial vehicles are in the service of the U.S. Army, and its cousin, the Pioneer, is being used by the U.S. Marines to scout Iraqi defenses. Both originated in the design labs of Israel Aircraft Industries, the country's largest private company. The Hunter dropped anti-tank munitions in recent U.S. tests, and could be used alongside the Air Force's armed Predator missile-firing drone in a ground attack role. Some of the Army's Bradley fighting vehicles are guided by on-board computers supplied by a subsidiary of Israel's Elbit Systems, Shapir said. U.S. troops riding in the Bradleys might also be protected by armor from Rafael, said Lova Drori, Rafael's director of international marketing. Rafael is also the designer of the Litening Targeting Pods used to fire precision weapons from the Marines' AV-8B Harrier jet, as well as F-15s and F-16s flown by the Air Force Reserves and Army National Guard, Drori said. Israel also makes or designs multiple rocket launchers, mortars, and laser target designators for the Army's Comanche helicopter and other components, Shapir said

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t 60 MM Mortar...doctrinal clues 11/25/2003 10:30:11 AM

It's my impression that the IDF has always tended toward purer tank tactics due to their unique local geography & traditional neglect for APC's/IFV's. The Israelis are presently redressing this shortcoming. Modified T-55's will give the IDF the best protected APC's for their heavy infantry. I'm guessing that the 60MM mortar in the Merk is a vestige of some tanker's wishlist. Poor guy probably got caught in the Negev in '73 without any meaningful infantry support. That 'poor LT' is probably a Major General in charge of their Armor School today. And he thinks a mortar is a good idea if you don't have SP arty or your air support is tied-up chasing away MiGs.

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bsl RE:60mm mortar -- BSL 11/25/2003 6:55:31 PM

Back up, guys. You're getting this one wrong. You need to focus on two, specific issues: 1)The general history of armor since introduction. There are MANY instances of a tank, or a tank platoon, finding itself in a tactical situation without artillery or mortar support, or without infantry along. This ISN'T a problem with doctrine, at all. It's simply a reflection of real world tactical developments on real battlefields. The matter of combined arms doctrine is real, but a separate issue. What I'm talking about is the many, many situations where a tank is cut off, or when a platoon stops for the night, and happens to be without infantry, or if the battalion artillery is along, but has higher priorities for fire missions and can't be spared to support the poor suckers over yonder. Or, the day started with a platoon of infantry along, but their M-2s got blown to hell and the tanks are alone. 2)There is a particular history to Israel's wars and a particular set of likely engagment scenarios for future battles. The way the 1973 War started on the Golan is not open to debate. It's history. The fact is that there were a LOT of instances of small units having to hold out for a day, or two or three, till the IDF could mobilize and move in force. Sorry. This has nothing to do with combined arms, or adequate arty, or anything of the sort. It's a function of the strategic environment, of a very small country surrounded by much larger enemies, which has to maintain a huge military establishment, but can only do so on the basis of a reserve based force. You just can't come up with an alternative in which it is unreasonable to anticipate tactical situations such as those of 1973 recurring. For that matter, it takes time to call in fire missions, and for the artillery to respond. Seconds mean something in battle. The time saved by being able to respond with an organic indirect fire capability rather than phoning home can be the difference between life and death. THIS is why an indirect fire option organic to each tank is worth investing in. (Although, frankly, this is not a terribly expensive item, and could EASILY be added to almost any MBT design. And, frankly, the first time it's utility is proven in battle, and widely reported, the option will become very popular among tankers the world over.) I wonder, too, about the level of skepticism over the whole idea which has been expressed. Check the StratPage AFV page. Apparently, whatever else is true about the Merkava design, some folk around here are impressed by it's firepower, generally. You'll note they rate that, specific capability in the Merkava 4 HIGHER than in the M-1, Leopard, or Challenger. A small mortar is not a big issue in a tank design. It doesn't take up much more room than a MG, and no one complains about wasting space on MGs.

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