Can the M-1 Abrams travel completely submerged?

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WarNerd 9/27/2009 5:49:59 AM

The snorkel apparatus is not part of the tank, but must be transported separately and then fitted at the point of use due to susceptibility to damage. The system is probably more time consuming to set up than a temporary bridge, consumes more transport to get it to the point of use, and you will still need the temporary bridge for your artillery and supporting logistics. The system seem to be demonstrated at some point for most tank designs, but I do not know if anyone stockpiles them, or deploys them in training.

The kit usually consists of extensions for engine's air intake and exhaust, a cap for the muzzle of the gun, some means of sealing the turret ring (typically a device resembling a bicycle tire) any other hull penetrations not sealed by water tight hatches, and a bilge pump capable of handling minor leaks. Many also include a "conning tower" extension for the tank commanders hatch. These extensions are not armored, and are vulnerable to small arms and artillery fire, which can lead to water in the engine intake, stalling the tank and leaving the crew to suffocate or drown.

The system was first developed by the Germans in WWII for the invasion of England, but the only actual operational use seems to have been to cross the Bug River at the opening of Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of Russia. That operation was a complete surprise, and the vehicles arrived at the opposite shore without being fired upon.

It should also be noted that when tanks with hybrid electric drives are finally deployed, they MAY be capable of traveling submerged without extensive preparation using their batteries.

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Nasty German Idiot 9/27/2009 6:35:25 AM

First of all, it takes a lot less time to mount a snorker than to build a bridge over a River. What is more important is that the bulk of German Vehicles and Tanks are able to snorkel through rivers or can swim ! That means the Leopards will not be alone on the other side and can possibly establish a bridgehead.

The thing is that Germany (and Europe in general) features a lot of streams and rivers that allow tanks to pass. Of course Leopards will hardly be able to "dive" through the Rhine given the strong force of the river and its depth, but 80 % of Rivers can be passed with armored vehicles without having to stop and wait for the poineers. (well, at some point bridges will have to be build thats logical !)

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Marine Rifleman 9/27/2009 6:58:42 PM

I think the snorkeling ability might be a bit overrated given not only the logistics an time required to setup but also the suitability of the fording sites (riverbed and banks ) to support that type of operations. I would rather devote snorkeling resources to rapid bridging capabilities.

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Marine Rifleman 9/27/2009 7:02:07 PM

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WarNerd 9/28/2009 5:59:55 AM

First of all, it takes a lot less time to mount a snorkel than to build a bridge over a River. What is more important is that the bulk of German Vehicles and Tanks are able to snorkel through rivers or can swim ! That means the Leopards will not be alone on the other side and can possibly establish a bridgehead.

Are you saying that most of the German artillery, POL tankers, and ammunition haulers can also snorkel or swim? If not, you will not get very far, or last very long, without them.

Is the use of the snorkel part of regular training for German tank crews? How many times per year do the Germans train with the snorkel equipment?

It takes less time to mount a snorkel on 'a tank', but what about a battalion? You have to establish a lager within a couple of miles of the crossing point (the snorkel gear makes the vehicles fairly obvious, particularly when moving, and can be damaged rendered dangerous to use by hitting overhanging branches and other obstructions), wait for the trucks with snorkel kits to arrive, distribute and mount them. Not much of a problem in a set piece assault at the opening of the war, but a nightmare in the middle of a campaign of movement.

And once you get to the other side of the river the crews will want to jettison the snorkel kits as fast as possible to get ready for combat (unless they want to go into combat with a flagpole mounted on the tank). Someone will have to collect and refurbish them if they are going to used more than once. Do the Germans have a large stockpile of these kits ready for use?

Lastly, what happens to a vehicle using a snorkel under water if artillery shell goes off in the water near by? Will the snorkel collapse? What about the connection to the vehicle?

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JFKY A Few Other Points 9/28/2009 10:11:43 AM

1) I have read that tanks, submerged, are Neutrally Buoyant...sure above water tanks are heavy beasts, but as submersibles, they are-well actually quite nice- as submersibles ought to be neutrally buoyant. HOWEVER, for a vehicle that moves via tracks, this neutral buoyancy, they float, is very bad news. It means they float along the bottom, subject to currents and less able to move effectively.

2) Using tanks in this manner requires EXTENSIVE preparations, both on the entrant and exit side of the water obstacle. Tanks don't just dive in and climb out...expect significant engineer prep and therefore time for a submerged crossing.

3) The river bottom severely affects crossing possibilities. A very soft muddy bottom PREVENTS crossing. To cross best requires a hard, flat river bottom.

The people who really emphasized this "capability" the Soviets generally faked their river crossings using submersible tanks....concrete entry and exit points and paved bottoms for the river itself. It was all a "Potemkin Village" designed to impress the Public, the Politburo and NATO. I don't think anyone has actually used this capacity in combat in 60-plus years.

Bottom-line: this is one of those "capabilities" that sounds a whole lot nicer in theory than it is useful in practice. I don't care if the Red Army or the Bundeswehr "practice" it and "plan" for it...I'm willing to make book that when push came to shove it would fail as often as it succeeded.

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Nasty German Idiot 9/28/2009 10:49:34 AM

As seen in this Video (around 1:31 ... ) and as I said before, the ability to cross smaller rivers (European terrain is full of them !) without using bridges can be very helpful in combat. Especially when bridges have to be taken by suprise. That does not mean that river crossings with tanks against a heavily fortified defender of the other side of the river are a good Idea.

This shows how it could be done !

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WarNerd 9/29/2009 6:27:51 AM

There are a few very light tanks that might have a degree of buoyancy (the Russian PT-76 is the only one that comes to mind) but any modern MBT probably has a unflooded specific gravity greater than 2 (i.e. the tank weights more than 2x the water it displaces). So you are firmly on the bottom, or stuck in the bottom if it is soft. The maximum depth of the water plus the maximum depth you can expect to sink in the bottom is critical, overtop the snorkel and there will seldom be any survivors unless the commander was riding up top.

Another problems are that you cannot see most of the obstacles that are under the surface of the water or worse yet under a thin layer of silt, and have to feel your way like a man trying crossing a dark room without bashing his shins on the coffee table or falling through a hole in the floor. Having pathfinders throughly survey the route before use would be an absolute necessity. And in most cases it will only take a few units stopped in mid river to block the known path.

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WarNerd 9/29/2009 6:41:17 AM

<<link removed>>

This shows how it could be done !

Note that the demonstration of the snorkel takes place in what is essentially a large cement lined swimming pool. The deep wading looks like a demonstration taking place in the open, and shallow wading segment might have been in a training exercise.

The fact that something is possible does not mean that anyone is crazy/desperate enough to do it, much less train to do it on a routine basis.

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stbretnco 9/29/2009 9:13:12 AM

I've been away from the 12B's too long to remember the time for the battle drill, but it doesn't take long at all to emplace the bridge from an AVLB.

Far, far easier to put a bridge in place than to snorkel a tank, and battle is NOT the time to be running around checking seals on the gear. If one seal is bad, the crew is in a world of hurt.

The question isn't whether is CAN be done, the question is really do we need to?

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ambush 9/29/2009 10:48:13 PM

It seems to me that snorkeling offers no real advantage of bridging or ferrying. All the demonstration videos seem to have such operations taking place from prepared locations-ramps and matting laid down on the banks probably prepared bottoms. I think that the topographic, hydrology and environmental conditions would be very restrictive in order for such an operation to be feasible.

I would think unit of tracked armored amphibious vehicles capable of crossing and at least temporarily securing the far side until a bridge or ferry operation is established would be of more value.

Perhaps not along the lines of the Marines AAAV-7 because it would not have to be able to handle open ocean sea states like the AAAV-7and we would want more firepower however I would not rule out the EFV, if adopted, to save expense of build a completely new vehicle. We would want true amphibious capability not this nonsense of erecting a collapsible screen, I also would recommend tracks over any wheeled vehicles so it would not be as restricted as type of banks it could negotiate.

If I recall correctly LVTs were used in the crossing of the Rhine during WWII but for some stupid reason were not used at Normandy.

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