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Subject: The Frugal T-90
SYSOP    10/4/2008 5:20:49 AM
 
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cwDeici       10/4/2008 10:09:34 AM
India should just make up with America, buy their weapons and prepare their military for ending Pakistan within this century or next.
 
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YelliChink       10/4/2008 11:04:32 AM
Pakistan doesn't have Russian tanks. They were using some old US tanks and Chinese-developed tanks.
 
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The-Great       10/4/2008 11:23:08 PM
Exactly the pakistanies don't operate russian tanks though I think they may have got a few tanks from Ukraine, anyhow India has better armor than the PRC and definetly Pakistan IMO, but the Russians still have to be considered the #1 tank fleet in eurasia.  But India is clearly begining to outclass the PRC in armor.
 
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The-Great       10/4/2008 11:28:12 PM

India should just make up with America, buy their weapons and prepare their military for ending Pakistan within this century or next.



Why? Russia is willing to give full TOT to India, plus make them partners in their military industry while the US has slapped sanctions on India in the past, plus has traditionally supported Pakistan who India, has taken care of anyway without US equipment.
 
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cwDeici       10/5/2008 3:52:33 AM

Pakistan doesn't have Russian tanks. They were using some old US tanks and Chinese-developed tanks.

Yes, this is basic knowledge.

 
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cwDeici       10/5/2008 4:00:55 AM



India should just make up with America, buy their weapons and prepare their military for ending Pakistan within this century or next.








Why? Russia is willing to give full TOT to India, plus make them partners in their military industry while the US has slapped sanctions on India in the past, plus has traditionally supported Pakistan who India, has taken care of anyway without US equipment.
 
They could have done better though I will admit this is mostly because they didn't have the stamina to push further into P-stan when the numbers finally started to swing things heavily into their favor.
I agree the US has mostly taken the other side in this conflict, but Pakistan has suffered US sanctions too. I believe that if India could improve their relationship with the US (perhaps by passing the NPA and supporting US policies in Asia in order to contain China in their own interest) they would find the US begin to prefer them over the muslim, Chinese ally of Pakistan.


One of Pakistan's strengths have been American equipment. I realize Russian equipment is good, but American equipment has a long record of higher quality. If India could become a major client of the US military industry it might be possibly to leverage that to limit supplies to Pakistan, or even allowing for it to become politically possible for the Indian navy and air force to run interference or even blockade the Pakistani coast and dominate its airspace.
 
 
In the short run I agree with you, Russia is a better partner. But India needs to think long-term, and American weapons will continue to be better than Russian ones for a long time. That alone should be sufficient reason. Russia might support India against China, but it has supported Pakistan too.
 
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cwDeici       10/5/2008 4:02:23 AM
In the past Indian-Pakistani wars Pakistani weapons have come out superior except for that time when Pakistan did not have the technological expertise to use them in '71... link
 
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arodrig6       10/6/2008 11:42:42 AM




I agree the US has mostly taken the other side in this conflict, but Pakistan has suffered US sanctions too. I believe that if India could improve their relationship with the US (perhaps by passing the NPA and supporting US policies in Asia in order to contain China in their own interest) they would find the US begin to prefer them over the muslim, Chinese ally of Pakistan.


If signing the NPA involves giving up their nukes, it would be an impossibly hard sell for India. Losing their nuclear deterrent in the face of a nuclear Pakistan is a non-starter.
 
That said, India has been improving relations with the US, witness the nuclear tech transfer agreement currently working its way through Congress. 

 
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The-Great       10/6/2008 7:33:25 PM

In the past Indian-Pakistani wars Pakistani weapons have come out superior except for that time when Pakistan did not have the technological expertise to use them in '71...link target="_blank">link


Pakistan was getting handled in 65 as well, If India had shown more determination they coulda took care of Pakistan a long time ago IMO.
 
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StevoJH       10/6/2008 8:19:52 PM
The funny thing about the bed rep the T72 has from Iraq is that Saddam's T72's were not even "real" T72's. He had a few copies of the export version of the first T72 varient. All the other "T-72's" that he had were clones of these export models. What must be remembered is that these tanks had much thinner and lower quality then the Soviet Issue tanks, as well as not as advanced fire control systems etc.
 
They are barely related to the T72's running around eastern Europe and Russia at the moment.

 
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Marine Rifleman       10/6/2008 9:19:57 PM
Doesn't India put French Fire control systems in their T-90s?
 I sure would hate to be the guy in charge of logistics for India's miliary establishment.
 
 However that being said and if I was buying new tank for the India's armed forces I would think I would go for the Merkava IV if the weight issue was not too restrictive.
 
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The-Great       10/6/2008 9:41:53 PM

The funny thing about the bed rep the T72 has from Iraq is that Saddam's T72's were not even "real" T72's. He had a few copies of the export version of the first T72 varient. All the other "T-72's" that he had were clones of these export models. What must be remembered is that these tanks had much thinner and lower quality then the Soviet Issue tanks, as well as not as advanced fire control systems etc.

 

They are barely related to the T72's running around eastern Europe and Russia at the moment.





Not only that but Saddam had already proven how terrible he was as a commander in the Iran-Iraq war, he should have easily beaten Iran with all the advantages he had in that conflict.
 
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The-Great       10/8/2008 9:31:26 PM
No, India will probably get better tech from Russia, our govt doesn't even let Israel and Japan get our best equipment, while Russia is willing to give India what ever they want, BTW India is trying to become more indigenous so working with Russia would be more to thier advantage.  Now if our Govt were to make the same deal Russia was making you would be right but it ain't gonna happen which is why they are going to buy more Russian arms.
 
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The-Great       10/8/2008 10:53:09 PM
Oh and 1 last thing Pakistan's equipment is so great that they had NO ANSWER for an Indian Mig 25 that violated thier airspace, that's right a 3rd generation plane, not a f-22 or a PAK-FA,Euro-fighter or a Rafale, but a MIG-25, India is on tract, Pakistan is the one who is in big trouble.
 
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