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Subject: Iraq Getting M-1A1 Tanks
SYSOP    8/3/2008 8:09:17 AM
 
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DarthAmerica       8/4/2008 4:45:44 PM
The Iraqi's are unique as far as tankers go. They have fought on both ends of the Abrams, they know all too well how good of a tank it is. Good for them to get it! I'm drooling at the private contracting opportunities...;)
 
 
-DA

 
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ArtyEngineer    Darth   8/4/2008 6:27:49 PM
No concerns with their ability to maintain a piece of gear like that?  I see on a daily basis that as our weapon systems get more complex its moving beyond the point where our young Soldiers and Marines are able to do it properly!!!!  Hence folks like myself doing what I do.  Just got done working with a SBCT from PA.  Didnt see a single guy in ACU's working on their vehicles!!!!  Was all Guys in GDLS overalls.  Which now that I think about it explains your comment about "Contracting Opportunities"  Forgot that once upon a time you were an 11K.
 
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JFKY    ArtyEngineer   8/4/2008 7:27:54 PM
As to the Iraqi's that maybe, at this point, questionable and certainly will open up contractor slots because of unwillingness and/or inability...
 
In the case of US forces, it's more a case of mission focus and economics...ArtyEngineer can maintain a Stryker, but can't FIGHT one, whilst the 11-m can do both.  So the US Army hires Artyengineer to do what s/he can do to free up the 11-m to fight the Stryker.  It's the same reasoning, whether you agree with it or not, that puts KBR and Haliburton in charge of mess halls and transportation...it's not that young Americans CAN'T cook or drive a truck, but that the US military would rather use them to kill people and break things.
 
Bottom-line: your example is apples and oranges...Iraqi's might not be CAPABLE of maintaining the M-1, the US CHOOSES to NOT maintain the Stryker, but hire outside contract labour.
 
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ArtyEngineer    JFKY   8/4/2008 9:52:14 PM
Respectively disagree with your post in its entirety.  I take great insult as I am sure all Field Service Reps, Support Engineers, Tech Reps etc would to be considered in the same vain as hired truck drivers/ cooks.  That sir is an apples and oranges comparison.
 
You display considerable arrogance and perhaps a bit of racism (probably not the best word, but cant think of a better one) to assume the Iraqis cannot maintain a complex piece of gear because they are "Iraqis" but the US can just because they are the US!!!!  That may not be what you meant but its how it came across.
 
Also, I dont work for GD, and have nothing to do with the Strykers (Other than having the occasional ride, and marvelling at how awesome a vehicle it actually is).  There is a lot more to a SBCT than just the various Stryker Varients. ;)
 
In my experience as much stuff gets "Tore Up" during quarterly and annual services than during "Operational Use".  An ungodly amount of LRU (Line Replaceble Units) are pulled and sent to higher echelons tof maintenance to include back to vendor only to be inspected and dispositioned as "No Fault Found".  Now these young marines and soldiers are doing their best, and I love those kids like family.  So please dont for one minute think I am calling them "Stupid" or am in anyway bashing them.  I am not. 
 
I stand by my original assertion that as weapon systems become more complex they are moving outside the scope of the young Maintenance MOS Marine or Soldier to accuratelly diagnose, trouble shoot and repair.  I would point to the automotive industry as a good analogy for this.  Not 20 years ago there were very few things that your back yard mechanic could not get into and fix.  You cant say the same today.  As systems rely more and more on software and electronics to keep the mechanical aspects in line you find yourself back at the dealership more frequently!!!!
 
The fact that you referenced the 11-M MOS (which by the way no longer exists) also shows a slight mis understanding.  Thats an operator, not a maintaniner.  Operator level maintenance consists of running self test and visual inspections for loose, missing or broken hardware.  Only tools you want your operators to have access to is a grease gun so they can do lube orders, cleaning materials, a soft faced mallet (So they cant do too much damage when they decide to beat on things).  And maybe a small adjustble wrench so they can occasionally tighten things up.  I say that slightly tongue in cheek, but there is a strong element of truth to it as well.  Anything they identify is on their attached or supporting maintenance folks to sort out.  It is them who I am referring to with regards to my concerns to fulfill their responsibilities.
 
One final thing, do you know what Grade Level technical manuals are required to be written at with regards to sentence structure, language etc? .........The 8th Grade level.  
 
I would love to hear Doggtags thoughts on this as I pretty sure he is in the Electro Optics maintenance field.  But again hes nor really one of the folks I have concerns about.  Hes older, more experienced etc.  A career soldier.  Its the single enlistment kids who make up the vast bulk of the Maintenance personnel that concern me.
 
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Carney    "Racism" accusation   8/6/2008 10:03:17 AM
Over the years I have found that a large portion of the time of the time "racism" accusations fly, they are in response to an acknowledgement of unwelcome facts, or to an excellent logical point that cannot otherwise be refuted.
 
On the issue of Arabs and maintenance of high-tech US equipment, I direct your attention to that well-known hate site, Strategypage.com, which summarizes the seminal and brilliant paper "Why Arabs Lose Wars":
 
link
 
Here's an excerpt:
 
"Lack of initiative makes it difficult for Arab armies to maintain modern weapons. Complex modern weapons require on the spot maintenance, and that means delegating authority, information, and tools. Arab armies avoid doing this and prefer to use easier to control central repair shops. This makes the timely maintenance of weapons difficult."
 
Here's a more extensive quote from the original paper:
 
link
 
"As for equipment, a vast cultural gap exists between the U.S. and Arab maintenance and logistics systems. The Arab difficulties with U.S. equipment is not, as sometimes simplistically believed, a matter of ?Arabs don?t do maintenance,? but a vast cultural gap. The American concept of a weapons system does not convey easily. A weapons system brings with it specific maintenance and logistics procedures, policies, and even a philosophy, all of them based on U.S. culture, with its expectations of a certain educational level, sense of small unit responsibility, tool allocation, and doctrine. The U.S. equipment and its maintenance are predicated on a concept of repair at the lowest level and therefore require delegation of authority. Tools that would be allocated to a U.S. battalion (a unit of some 600-800 personnel) would most likely be found at a much higher level — probably two or three echelons higher — in an Arab army. The expertise, initiative and, most importantly, the trust indicated by delegation of responsibility to a lower level are rare. Without the needed tools, spare parts, or expertise available to keep equipment running, and loathe to report bad news to his superiors, the unit commander looks for scapegoats.

All this explains why I many times heard in Egypt that U.S. weaponry is ?too delicate.? I have observed many in-country U.S. survey teams: invariably, hosts make the case for acquiring the most modern of military hardware and do everything to avoid issues of maintenance, logistics, and training. They obfuscate and mislead to such an extent that U.S. teams, no matter how earnest their sense of mission, find it nearly impossible to help. More generally, Arab reluctance to be candid about training deficiencies makes it extremely difficult for foreign advisors properly to support instruction or assess training needs."

 
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Carney    Second link attempt   8/6/2008 10:07:03 AM
When I tried to post a link to the original article "Why Arabs Lose Wars", the URL did not get through.
 
I'll try to put it in a TinyURL
 
link
 
If that doesn't work, go to tinyurl dot com slash 19kp.
 
The stuff about maintenance is on the second page.
 
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doggtag    ArtyEngineer & others (on the maintenance nightmare the Army is heading for)   8/6/2008 11:53:34 AM
Hey AE,
sounds like you were up in my neck of the woods.
I've pretty much been chained to FIG (Ft Indiantown Gap) as of late, what with work and classes out the wazoo for deployment with 28th CAB the 1st half of next year...
 
But anyway,
the biggest issue I see now isn't so much the competency levels of this youngest generation of maintenance MOS "warriors" (the more TRADOC-preferred title now).
The glitch the Army, as I see it,
is facing now is how much of the maintenance is failing under what we once called Prime Vendor Support (no idea if it's still called that).
One has to take into effect that the Strykers (just an example, you could fit FCS in there at a later date, and surely others) are currently still mostly warrantied items: for their first umpteen hours/miles, anything other than tire changes and fluids is handled by the GDLS crews.
But I'll agree with you on the complexities part: there are a lot of components I went to Redstone to learn repair on a few years back, only to be informed that our IFTE van (Integrated Family of Test Equipment) mostly doesn't do little more than verifying which component has the specific bad part, only to then send so many of the components we test to the contractor to fix (even if, technically, the 35Y/94Y school did teach us enough to know to get thru a majority of repairs...),
"Can't have that!", cries the contractor. "That's proprietary equipment" or numerous other excuses to justify why we warriors aren't authorized to repair certain equipment.
(sigh, the good old days when we could take Bradley, TOW, and Dragon equipment down to the circuit board level and solder in a lot of the necessary repairs ourselves are now gone...)
 
I'll give you this, on mentioning experience:
in all my almost-17-years,
I've seen fresh-out-of-AIT E-2s and PFCs I'd have been more willing to trust to fix something right the first time, rather than a tech who's been hands-on with the equipment for a decade or better.
But contrary, I've also seen techs who've learned the subtle nuances of a piece of equipment, its temperamental tolerances, that weren't taught in AIT but learned thru experience, only to have some green and eager AIT grad think s/he knows all their sh*t but in their overconfidence they skip step after step and fudge things up even worse.
 
I suppose it's just like any job, really: you have people who are too eager and break more than they fix (or they're just technically inept and shouldn't be working on it in the first place),
and I've seen people who know pieces of equipment inside and out, just because of years of experience, and can fix anything.
And even worse, I've also seen people who just don't give a sh*t about the quality of their work as long as they collect a paycheck (and they beheld the wrath of the much-hated QAQC! mu-ha-ha!).
 
Back on topic,
the problem with using a horde of  Field Service Reps and other company techs is that, after all the warranties wear out, does the contractor try and negotiate another high-dollar multi-year service contract to continue supporting the equipment maintenance?
Because otherwise, at some point the Army (TRADOC) is going to have to negotiate with the contractors the training requirements for Army warriors, Marines, and even foreign allies to be MOS-schooled on proper maintenance.
 
(and to add to my bitch session, one of the biggest shortcomings of those 8th-grade level tech manuals switching from paperbound over to ETMs-(tech manuals in pdf format on CD-ROMs) is that they never take into effect the schematics when porting over the TM to electronic format, so we end up with a horribly-scanned schematic of an Army-repairable component that, as we scale it up to a size bigger than a laptop's screen permits (something we can actually read when it's full-scale in the paper manual), the damn schematic become so illegible it's useless! It's an Army-wide issue, not specifically any given contractor's fault.)...
 
Still, I'll agree with you guys on matters of maintenance simplicity.
There's nothing wrong with designing a tank's powerpack to be fully pulled and re-installed in 30 minutes.
But why even bother if the parts we pull, we're not technically authorized to work on?
I've recently been reading up a lot, going to seminars, about the Army's future maintenance plans and what's now going to be referred to as "Maneuver Sustainment" (keeping the fighting elements moving).
There's nothing wrong with designs based around LRUs (Line Replaceable Units), SRUs (Shop Replaceable Units) and this whole concept of "it's either On System Maintenance, or Off System Maintenance".
But I have a problem with is, why reduce the warrior to little more than a wrench monkey, whose only solution to fixing something is taking off the components that the diagnostic PDA says is bad, only to send them back to the vendor to be worked on (how much more does it cost the contractor to have an engineer fix them, as opposed to the Army paying an E-3 or Spoc to do it?) ?
 
Generally I have faith when talking to Field Reps and company techs (they aren't always the people to blame for making a system so overly complex),
but as I see equipment becoming so complex that warriors in the field can't make even the minorest of repairs on them to keep the mission going (minimal or no redundancies, tolerances too tight to adjust under austere conditions), sometimes I think the designers and engineers should've been drug out from their cubicles periodically and flogged, "Don't ever forget KISS!" ?(NO, no the band! Keep It Simple, Stupid!).
 
These excessive increases in compexity is one of the issues that's driving system procurement costs thru the roof.
Designing reliability into a system is one thing, but everything doesn't need to be so gold-plated and and complex that only an engineer with at least a 4-year degree can fix it (no offense, AE).
A lot of these systems are designed for field duty, and at the hands of people who may be minimally skilled or operating in haste to "make the system go", and these men and women don't need the battlefield hassle of "if it don't work, get a replacement from supply (if they have one) while we send this broken one back stateside to fix it!"
(Raytheon did wonders with the new TOW ITAS site that combined both the day tracker and thermal night site together...but we warriors technically can't fix it, like we once could with each of the older sites. Now, we do little more than verify it wasn't grunt errors that made it not work, and we send the components back to Raytheon to fix...even though, with enough training, any given warrior with an electronics background can negotiate his/her way around a faulty piece of equipment with a multimeter, o-scope, and one of these fix-everything $5200 ITT-Tech-would-love-to-have-these tool kits that has every tool you've ever even heard of.)
 
Not every warrior is cut out to be a mechanic.
But we're not all so simple-mined that we're only good for pointing guns and pulling triggers.
 
Considering the workload that's being dumped on many of the frontline warriors (not just an infantry grunt, but also be a policeman, an interpretor, a medic, navigate in unfamiliar terrain, know how to work umpteen different kinds of radios and other tactical electronic accessories, know how to operate at least a dozen different vehicles and generators, etc), why does whoever makes these decisions on who's qualified or not to do complex maintenance think that Army folk can no longer be capable of fixing a lot of their own equipment (do the figure we're overl;oaded enough as it is?) ?
 
There was a time that a career in the military meant learning a valuable set of manual and analytical skills that transferred well into the civilian sector. It seems like, as contractors feel they can no longer entrust field warriors to properly maintain equipment, how then does that help the troops, Marines, even airmen and sailors inspire confidence both in themselves and the equipment they handle on a daily basis?
 (no more of that, "my buddies' lives are depending on me to make this work, so I have to do a good job, and that instills then more confidence I have in myself!")
 
Can the contractors always guarantee filed reps will be available for on-site diagnostics and emergency repair work, even in the heat of battle?
Working out of a well-protected and heavily-defended FOB in the green zone is one thing.
Try it under harsh field conditions in the worst of weather where imminent enemy fire may be as little as a few hundred meters away.
 
None of this is intended as specifically derogatory to anyone in particular,
not ArtyEngineer or any of you guys who may be part of the whole war machine (maintainers, operators, supervisors, or whomever).
This is just some almost-17 years of observation, both as a National Guardsman and from Active Duty time.
 
Are foreigners any less capable of maintaining US equipment?
Not as long as they receive the same level of maintainer training that US personnel receive.
Matter of fact, my last time at Redstone (2004-2005), one of the IFTE classes had a captain from Egypt (whom I'm certain was the class Honor Grad), and several of the Bradley and Avenger classes had officers and enlisted men from several foreign countries also (the Lt from the Philippines, or was it Taiwan?, wore the most awesomest tiger-stripe camo).
 
Providing any given nation's maintenance personnel are properly trained, there's no reason they can't be taught to adequately maintain their US-supplied equipment (providing their own military chain of command is strict about maintaining the proper standards.)
It has nothing to do with what nation you're from, or your skin color, or whatever the national educational average is of the children fortunate enough to have attended a high school equivalent.
Hell, we're selling F-16 Block-50-whatevers to Pakistan, for chrissakes!
If they can maintain F-16s, why can't Iraqi warriors keep an Abrams tank operating?
For several years, those Arabs held their own against the iranian hordes, and it wasn't by riding camels and using slings and rocks.
 
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doggtag    sorry for all the typos, guys...   8/6/2008 12:13:53 PM
...my fast-fingere fudging when it comes to typing reminds me why I'm not a professional writer (even though I crucify myself in the process, harping on everyone else for not being grammatically accurate!).
 
 
 
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Nichevo       8/6/2008 1:05:16 PM
"Can't have that!", cries the contractor.
 
(In a world where I'm isolated from consequences) I'd'a shot him in the kneecap before he started the next sentence.  Who the hell is some REMF schmuck to say no to me?  The USG owns all intellectual property of its weapons systems - no?  If not, maybe someone else should be kneecapped. And if the vendors don't like it, I guess they don't ever have to sell to USG again.  How dare they?
 
Meanwhile, in corporate IT, the people I despised most were the spiders, who wove little webs in the corners of their little empires and made you come crawling to them for little bits of info that in a just world would be tacked to the bulletin board or better yet online.  Information hoarders.  In other words, scum.
 
But if those contractors will commit to frostbite in the snows of Bastogne or jungle rot in New Georgia, or death marches on Bataan, because they won't let a dogface turn his own wrenches, I guess that's OK.  As long as they realize there is no quitting.
 
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arodrig6       8/6/2008 2:38:58 PM

"Can't have that!", cries the contractor.

 

(In a world where I'm isolated from consequences) I'd'a shot him in the kneecap before he started the next sentence.  Who the hell is some REMF schmuck to say no to me?  The USG owns all intellectual property of its weapons systems - no?  If not, maybe someone else should be kneecapped. And if the vendors don't like it, I guess they don't ever have to sell to USG again.  How dare they?



"The USG owns all intellectual property of its weapons systems - no?  If not, maybe someone else should be kneecapped."
 
In a word, No.  The USG doesn't own all the IP in its weapons systems. Consider that most defense contractors are major multinationals who build parts all over the world, and that many weapons systems use commodity parts. If the USG owned all that IP, they would probably end up owning most of the IP produced in the industrial world...
 
Defense contractors are also worried about information leaking to their competitors or overseas. If they trained a soldier on every aspect of the system, and then that soldier went to a competitor (or went overseas) the original contractor could lose a competitive advantage. For their part, the government is concerned about letting too much information spread too far for security reasons.
 
"And if the vendors don't like it, I guess they don't ever have to sell to USG again."
 
This goes both ways. The USG has the problem that fewer and fewer vendors exist to provide many systems. How many companies bid on the JSF? How many shipyards are available for the DD-X systems? Industry is consolidating, and the USG has fewer choices.  This makes it harder to press on IP issues.
 
 
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flamingknives       8/6/2008 3:57:16 PM
I really don't like the software this board runs on. I have to write in HTML to get it to work

Modern military systems are highly complex and only tested with a defined set of parts and processes. Given that contractors can be held liable for system performance or failures some reticence is likely. Plus it reduces bad blood between military and customer over who did or didn't do what.
 
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doggtag    Thanks, AE   8/7/2008 1:46:10 PM
...For the rest of you wondering why a bunch of guys would get so fired up (pardon the pun) over firing their howitzer,
you have to consider that they don't get to do that very often...at least not yet...
 
AE,
any new news on the NLOS-C program?
(or any other cool tidbits you're allowed to share?)
 
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serfer62    Well that didn't take long   8/9/2008 1:01:47 PM
to get off topic.
 
Can the Iraqis maintain the M1A1?
 
To find that out just see how they do with the M16 that replaced the AK47. The AK47 was a weapon the soviet trained forces needed for the clumsy training requiring little maintence.
 
 The new Iraqi army is western trained and that weapons purchase, the M16, gave generals ulcers for that reason, maintence and would it be done.
 
So folks, you don't have to guess
 
LimaEcho
 
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greyghost       10/5/2008 8:04:00 AM
  There is not going to be a maintenance nightmare for artillery. The technology is is the same for all our modern manufacturing machine tools. As a marine high school grad I went to work at a after the corp as a maintenence technician. I worked with robots in cleanroom manufacturing and had no problems keeping up production. The real problem will be contracter's engineering and reliability problems. The legal and technical requirment to maintain a flawed spec. will also cause major maintenance head aches. A lot of the contract maintenance you see is the contractors trying to fluff the reliability numbers. Also the government can act like they are saving money by having "free" maintenance. I saw the same type of thing at the start of the F/A18 program.  
 
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