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Subject: Russian armour development.
00_Chem_AJB    6/4/2008 3:01:34 PM
As we all know the Russians seem to love their ERA, however ERA has its down sides: After one shot on the ERA, the protection offered by that tile or slab is gone. And of course the dangers for nearby infantry, though this, according to the Russians*, has been reduced with Kontkat-5 as the slab is not reduced to shrapnel like the older Kontkat-1. Now there is alot of speculation as to what will be Russia's new tank when they unveil it next year, but it seems it will incorporate Russia's latest ERA Kactus.** So my question is has Russia focused on making better ERA in favour of further development of composite armour more commonly seen on Western MBTs, after all Russia was the first to use composite (Combination K) on the T-64*** link * link ** link ** link
 
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Bluewings12       6/7/2008 11:12:43 PM
And if anybody had doubts about the very high heat signature of the Abrams , look at that :

h*tp://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1362/pict0197nh7.jpg

or :
h*tp://img242.imageshack.us/img242/39/pict0198kl4.jpg

I can keep going all night long ...

Cheers .

 
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Herald12345       6/8/2008 12:05:50 AM
Engine fire.

Now the TC on the M-1 uses an M2HB  MG. It s the loader who uses an 7.62. He, the TC, sticks his head out because no matter how good you make the remote TV viewer it isn't as good as a Human looking around WITH HIS OWN EYES. I suppose that this obvious fact escaped your notice, but then I forgot, you don't know the first thing about tanks or soldiering in general. It actually helps to have been around the machines [recently] you know.

One more thing, before I shut down for the night.

When you learn something about IEDs, RPGs and M-256 main cannon round strike characteristics on armor, let me know and I may take your  NONSENSE seriously.   

Herald

 
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Wicked Chinchilla       6/8/2008 2:29:52 AM
A couple things BW...

I do not know what exactly you are trying to prove with the shot of the, to use your words "wrecked abrams."  The damage is obviously from an IED.  There is no specific scarring on the armor or blastpoint as you would expect from an RPG or ATGM.  The damage is wide spread with no clear focus.  Now, some of those IED's are awfully huge up to the size of several 500 lbs (roughly 250kg for our European friends) bombs strung together.  Detonated in close proximity to any military vehicle is going to yield some significant results.  

However, contrary to your goal of showing that the Abrams is weak these pictures show that despite having a large and powerful explosive detonation near to the tank, the damage remained external.  The tank is a mess, but looking at the tank as a whole I am sure the crew survived which is a testament to just how TOUGH these beasts are. 

In reference to the heat signature: what, exactly, do you think those pictures show?  Two hot Abrams.  Hmm.. interesting.  What is the context of the photos?  How far after sundown were they taken?  If those tanks were in the sun the metal is going to get damn hot and retain that heat well after the source is gone.  In fact, thats how a lot of Iraqi tanks in Gulf War I were picked off.  They got hot during the day and when the sand around them cooled at night they were like beacons and were insanely easy to spot.  Of course, someone who claims to be so knowledgeable about tanking and warfare in general would realize that as a distinctive possibility and not just jump to wild conclusions about heat signatures.  Not to mention the engine on the Abrams is in the ass of the tank...

Random, out-of-context pictures on the internet do not validate an argument.  Same as pretty graphics won't save a presentation without the facts on which they are based.  The pictures must stand upon the argument, the argument cannot stand upon the pictures. 
 
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flamingknives       6/8/2008 4:46:33 AM
The Challenger 2, however, rarely goes out to play with its base armour package only.

h*tp://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23539
 
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Bluewings12       6/8/2008 7:11:16 PM
Yesterday , I was just browsing through some pictures I have . I did let mysef go and went well beyond the topic . I in fact trapped myself .
Now , I need to try to survive the co**-up , lol !

So , I need to go where I need to to try to build a case (lol) , sorry .

The dead Abrams is indeed an IED , and an engine fire completed the kill . Some knew it .
What surprised me is the "naked" feel , how vulnerable the Tank looks . It looks like a WW2 wreck : naked hull with a naked turret , and burned . I did not think about the crew first and just said "Sh*t , that 's bad" .
I did not post the pic to take advantage of a dead Abrams but to show what can happen when a Tank is not protected enough .
Sure a 250kg IED is a huge charge but a Leclerc or a Leopard would have survided that , most probably . Then the engine fire is another thing to think of : is a turbine engine more likely to catch fire ?

I mean , look at the Abrams 's skirts :
h*tp://img356.imageshack.us/img356/5408/nmp1010176ay6.jpg

They only did half of the job . The way they are is telling me that :
1) They most probably went inside the tracks during the explosion (1st and 2nd plates from the front) and helped to wreck the track .
2) The explosion occured at 2 third of the lengh of the Tank : so why the fire engine ?

A Tank like this one with the Skirts with NERA and a better protected engine would have fared better (maybe) :
link can 't see that on the Abrams or Challenger II .
***************
A human eye can scan faster than a camera for moving things . That 's true .
When you 're a TC , you need as much infos as you can get right now . A good camera is on thing but when you can have a quick look around from the top turret , it waaay better . That 's also true .
But when the sh*t hits the fan and the TC (and the Loader) has to go down , a computer remote controled Machine-gun is the thing you need . Those 6 bastards on the nearby rooftop with AK-47 and RPG , they 'll better duck .
The tank also have 2 more heavy weapons like the Gunner' s 12.7mm (!) on top of the main gun and the 2nd 7.62mm , both fitted where the Tank is facing :

h*tp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4064/leclercimg1744vr8.jpg

I can 't see that on Abrams and Challenger II .

Can the Abrams and Chalenger II dive under 4m of water with a 20 minutes preparation ? (The soviets Tanks can)
h*tp://www.army-technology.com/projects/leclerc/images/Leclerc_13.jpg
*************
Regarding the heat signature of the Abrams , the pictures were shot at night . Here is another one who shows the distance (as usual , from the Gunner main sight) :
link can also see that when using the Zoom-2 on the Abrams , the human beings at 1380m are like 200m away .
The Leclerc has an even better Zoom and I could see if one of the human being has a moustache ;-)
******************
I am well of the track (Russian armor) but I had to make up for it , at least a little bit ...
So , could you please forgive me for being too zealous ?

Since I own you , here are some pictures from the sandbox . I salute the ones who are on the Pics as I know some of them :
Mossul , Cav on the watch :
h*tp://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5724/p1010836ya6.jpg

1-1C Alpha (with Gary) , Baghdad :
 h*tp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9010/img3712qe7.jpg

From the TC sight , somewhere around Baghdad :
h*tp://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9679/nmdcp1962tm3.jpg

This is Jim B. , one of the best TC than I know of :
h*tp://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9033/p1020237cn1.jpg

Him again :
h*tp://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2262/p1020236tz6.jpg

Having Track problems :
h*tp://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9728/nmp1010079xc8.jpg

Changing the turbine engine :
h*tp://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6239/nmp1010082lt1.jpg

F***ing sand :
h*tp://img501.imageshack.us/img501/3095/nmp1010092dc3.jpg

Really hard work :
h*tp://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8783/nmp1010106ag9.jpg

The "mascotte" :
h*tp://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4303/nmp1010609ry8.jpg

FIRE !
h*tp://img367.imageshack.us/img367/4919/nmtankshotrg9.jpg
******************
Let 's go back on  tracks , we were talking about Russian armor , aren 't we ?

Cheers .















 
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Bluewings12       6/8/2008 7:25:15 PM
Sorry bad link . Here :
h*tp://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6803/nmp1010619jm7.jpg

Cheers .

 
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Nichevo       6/8/2008 8:16:06 PM
Sure a 250kg IED is a huge charge but a Leclerc or a Leopard would have survived that , most probably .
Easy (and cheap) for you to say.  Esp as French and German armor won't ever actually fight.  (Likewise that Swedish tank, who are they kidding?  They'll just sell to both sides, why would they need to fight?  They should make it out of cardboard and save money.)  So we have no combat users of French or German tanks to ask.  Gimme some surplus hulls of yours, I'll blow 'em up real good.

It is inescapable that your beasts have no record.  Maybe they're great.  We'll never know.  Like, sewer rat could taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know, because I'll never eat one.  Besides, from that other thread, the French tanks won't fight, with the best will, bravery, elan in the world, because you seem to be having a maintenance/readiness crisis.  I hope you, FS et Cie. pursue this with the same vigor as you display your patriotism here.

BTW I missed it, what is "NERA?"
 
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Bluewings12       6/8/2008 8:52:22 PM
Nichevo :
""BTW I missed it, what is "NERA?"""

Non-Explosive Reactive Armor .

""
It is inescapable that your beasts have no record.  Maybe they're great.  We'll never know.""

That is true and I like it this way . But if they ever come to fight  , we' ll see .

""
because you seem to be having a maintenance/readiness crisis.""

This is unfortunatly true . Our Leclercs and AMX-(xx) are fine but because of lack of money and french regulations , we 're (French Army) forced to do a lot with very little :-(
This is only for the time being . The Armed Forces in France will change a lot and they will be more compact and better organized .

N. Sarkozy is right in his views (Foreign policy) , but wrong on the credits for the next 15 years . We need 25% more than he promises to bring the Navy and the Army where they need to be . The FAF will only have to adapt with less Airbases but with better Aircrafts (Rafale F3s) . The FAF looks OK , no worries there .

What we need is a second CBG and it doesn 't look like we 're gonna have one ...
********************
Back to Tanks .
Nichevo , all of your T-xxs in the World can come after our Leclercs , they 'll be dealt with with sheer brutality .

This is not about Patriotism Nichevo , it is about Leclerc eating alive 4 T-90s for breakfast before to go to battle ;-)

Cheers .

 
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Wicked Chinchilla       6/8/2008 10:26:07 PM
Until an IED goes off next to a Leclerc or Leopard it will not be known whether they can handle said explosion better so any speculation or assertions saying as much are quite useless.  250 kg is a LARGE bomb especially when its composed of high explosive and detonated within extreme proximity.  Also, I stated that these bombs have sometimes been rigged in series, so it could be multiple bombs.  I think it is far more likely that any tank will be wrecked by said explosion.  The armor packages are not designed for fighting IED's.  The shape is all wrong among other things.  They are designed to resist/redirect point munitions like HEAT rounds or long-rod penetrators, not large-scale wide spread trauma.  Will the armor fail?  No, not without a direct (or within inches anyway) hit.  Will there be large warping and other general damage?  Most certainly.  

As far as the night vision: I figured they were taken at night, the question I posed was WHEN at night.  Just before morning?  Just after sunset?  Middle of the night?  Have those tanks been moving around a lot or idling a while?  Steel will retain heat for hours, that was my point.  What are the context of the photos?  Saying they were taken at night does not present any new information, or provide any context whatsoever.  
 
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Bluewings12       6/8/2008 10:47:24 PM
Chinchilla :
""until an IED goes off next to a Leclerc or Leopard it will not be known whether they can handle said explosion""

I say that they can , especialy the Leclerc . But that 's me.

""
As far as the night vision: I figured they were taken at night, the question I posed was WHEN at night.  Just before morning?  Just after sunset?  Middle of the night?  Have those tanks been moving around a lot or idling a while?  Steel will retain heat for hours, that was my point.""

It was at night , it was dark . Your last point ""
Steel will retain heat for hours, that was my point."" , is true . But it doesn 't matter when you 're a gunner , it really doesn 't . Any Tank who has its engine off for less than an hour will look HOT in your sights . This is especialy true for the Abrams and Leopards . The Leclerc is a bit better because of its backside design , I 'm not joking .

But it really doesn ' t matter . Any Tank on the battlefield is hot and can be spotted as easily as another Tank . There is no Heat Stealth with Tanks .

Cheers .
 
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