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Subject: Russian armour development.
00_Chem_AJB    6/4/2008 3:01:34 PM
As we all know the Russians seem to love their ERA, however ERA has its down sides: After one shot on the ERA, the protection offered by that tile or slab is gone. And of course the dangers for nearby infantry, though this, according to the Russians*, has been reduced with Kontkat-5 as the slab is not reduced to shrapnel like the older Kontkat-1. Now there is alot of speculation as to what will be Russia's new tank when they unveil it next year, but it seems it will incorporate Russia's latest ERA Kactus.** So my question is has Russia focused on making better ERA in favour of further development of composite armour more commonly seen on Western MBTs, after all Russia was the first to use composite (Combination K) on the T-64*** link * link ** link ** link
 
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Beryoza    00_Chem_AJB   6/6/2008 3:56:23 AM
Just a couple of points....
 
Why do you say that Kontakt EDZ is stolen from the Israelis. Both Rafael's Blazer and Kontakt seem to have a concurrent development timeline.
 
Also, one thing that I've brought up in the past and it seems to be generally neglected is the ease of manufacturing. Like is well known, the Soviet Union pioneered composite armour, but it is one thing to build a handful of prototypes and quite another to equip a tank fleet.
 
The "loose" quality of socialist labour, not to mention material delays and shortages, makes it far more expedient to focus on ERA, which is relatively tolerant to such abuses, and provides an excellent increase in protection vs. the then primary threat (HEAT).
 
It seems a logical enough move to me
 
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Beryoza    00_Chem_AJB   6/6/2008 4:06:24 AM
OK, just re-read your last thread and it seems we are both on the same track! I'm physically and mentally exhausted today so bear with me!
 
I think the way to go for Russia would be to examine the role and doctrine of her armour force and then come up with a techincal solution. So far, T-80 (BV, which is the main variant in service, along with a handful of BVM), T-72B(M) and T-90 are arguably ideally suited to the Russian defensive doctrine, which is one of "de-escalation" (selective use of tactical nukes).
 
I personally believe this is maskirovka, but as long as Russia takes this public stance she is generally safe from the threat of invasion. If an invasion were to occur, the armoured forces would be used in a reverse-Cold War manner, i.e. mopping up the incohesive remnants of a nuked enemy force. Any reasonably well armed and armoured tank is suitable for this.
 
 
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Bluewings12       6/6/2008 8:24:25 AM
Chem , I share Boris 's view that the Russians did not steal any tech to Israel . The systems are very different anyway .

Kontakt-5 is very good against kynetics penetrators , it adds up to 30% of protection (equivalent to around 300mm RHA) .
In my opinion , NERA is still a better choice as long as it is of a modular design (meaning that the armor blocks can be changed quickly if desired , even on the battlefield) because a Kontakt-5 block is only a one time protection , when "used" it is alea jacta est (the dices are thrown) . A good NERA block can be hit multiple times before to be in need to be changed .

The Russian composite armor is not that bad on its own , it does a rather good job even without ERA .
See these tests :

h*tp://russianarmor.info/
(goto Trial , 20.10.99 MBT Protection)

Chem :
""so my follow on question is what is the best way, methods in design and hardware, to increase crew survivablity Russian style""

Something like the Black Eagle or like the T-95 : unmmaned turret , crew in an armored pod , 152mm (!) smoothbore gun , Kontakt-5(6 ?) , ARENA . If the stuff works as intended , it 's gonna be a hell of a foe .

Cheers .

 
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00_Chem_AJB       6/6/2008 10:18:17 AM
Boris and Blue, ok after looking it up further the Russians did indeed experiment on ERA much earlier than I thought, though it took Israeli action in Lebanon to prove the idea worked, and thus Russia went ahead with there own Kontakt program. As for Kontakt-5 and LRPs, didn't NATO countries develop new rounds to counter this added protection? (Again the old projectile vs armour argument.)
 
Any way it seems that the idea of an unmanned turret is where the Russians are heading, the BMPT proved they can pull it off, though mass production may be a different story.
 
Also Blue enough about the LeClerc, we all know where you stand on this, I can't comment on the tank as a weapon system, I am ignorant, but as for good looks it beats all other Western tanks hands down, IMO. This topic however is for Russian tanks.  
Thanks
 
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Bluewings12       6/6/2008 10:43:22 AM
No worries Chem , but we 're talking about armor so saying that modular armor is good is relevant .

Cheers .

 
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Herald12345    Sigh. More "readbacks".   6/6/2008 1:39:22 PM
Bery , I may e-mail you something I learned  about Russian composites in a couple days. Same garbage drop.

Herald

 
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Bluewings12       6/6/2008 6:42:55 PM
Chem :
""As for Kontakt-5 and LRPs, didn't NATO countries develop new rounds to counter this added protection? (Again the old projectile vs armour argument.)""

Of course NATO did . The best exemple are the US M829A3 and the German DM-53 . Another good round but not fielded yet , is the French PROCIPAC , for now France is using the latest OFL which is not as good as the US/German ones .
Here , I might say that opinions differs ... For some , the US M829A3 is the best round since sliced bread , for others (like myself) , the German DM-53 is as good . It might even be better ...

Nevertheless , a T-80U or T-90 equipped with Kontakt-5 can still stop those @2500m . 2500m is a long way and unless to be in the desert , the shot will occur at a lesser distance (in Europe , it' s about 1500m average) and at that distance , both US and German rounds will penetrate the front turret 75% of the time . I ran that simulation sooo many times from every angles you can think of and the results are telling . I even run the same stuff but it was the T-80s who were firing on the others T-80s : the Russian Du 3BM-42M cannot penetrate @2000m , but they can at less than 1500m .

Obviously , the US and German APFSDS are better . The latest Chinese APFSDS like the 125-II have similar performances than the Russian Du 3BM-42 .

The West has the best rounds anyway . But the problem is not there ...

Cheers .

 

 
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Bluewings12       6/6/2008 7:21:14 PM
I just ran some numbers about the Leclerc' s armor (sorry everybody but I might have spotted something) .

I picture I provided is telling more than we can see ;-)

The module has a depth of about 45cm (450mm) but it can stop a DM-43 which is rated at about 600mm RHA .That' s already a 24% bonus increase (what HEAT warheads it can stop cannot be discussed here as it is classified) .
Behind the module is Leclerc 's main cast/rolled turret made of HHS steel/composite which is rated at 400m RHA . Adding both figures gives 1000 RHA vs APFSDS . There isn 't any existing round who can go through that much or armor and that is from the front and from the sides (the modules are the same everywhere on the Tank) .

Can someone with a bit a spare time could check my numbers ? (if you need some steel and composite rating , ask me and I 'll try to give you the numbers) .

Cheers .


 
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Herald12345    BW .   6/6/2008 10:20:28 PM
Please back up each claim you make with source citation and third party PROOF. Otherwise I take everything you  write as an  one of your unproven assertions. Unless you present evidence then I regard your opinion as merely unsubstantiated opinion.

That is not my opinion. That is my observed technical conclusion, based on your numerous past TECHNICAL errors, unsubstantiated assertions, and just plain postings of some facts which YOU do not understand..

1. Brinell numbers.and metallurgy
2. The way armor packages are built
3. The very layout of tanks' armor packages and how they work.
4. Russian tactics.
5. The Lecluck's armor scheme

I'd like to see you TRY to explain how you got all of that so disastrously wrong.

Please explain yourself for the record.

Herald
 
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Beryoza    BW   6/7/2008 5:12:23 AM
h*tp://russianarmor.info/
(goto Trial , 20.10.99 MBT Protection)
I recall reading some of Vasily Fofanov's posts on tank net where he speculates that the results of that test had been witheld. He suspected that the figures he had been given were invented, and not the originals, so I wouldn't trust them.
 
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