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Subject: Please rate this infantry support vehicle idea.
32degrees    11/5/2007 3:10:24 AM
When I first came up with the following idea for a infantry support vehicle I tried to pull from every issue that an armored fighting vehicle faces. Like, mobility issues from were it is to how it got there. It's ability to defend itself and other key players such as infantry. Other factors such as affordability and ease of maintenance. It's ability to be useful to a battlefield commander and a private. Basically, I tried my best to design the infantryman's friend and after several months of research I think I have come up with a good design to support a soldier on the move.
One of the key elements that was looked at in designing this ISV was history. What I did was ask myself one question. Since, World War II what has most armies in the world done to protect thier soldiers when faced with ambushes or overwhelming assaults. They pull out thier Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft Guns and use overwhelming heavy machine gun or autocannon fire to disperse the threat. Here is a small list of countries that have used this quick fix idea. The U.S. in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Panama. The Soviet Union in Afghanistan and Chechnya. German during WWII. Israel in Lebanon and the list goes on. Anyway it is a proven concept that works.
A SPAAG system is a true marvel to behold and is a major threat to infantry if deployed correctly. For instance most armies that use SPAAGs primarily use them for infantry support now and thier anti-aircraft role is relegated to back up. What gives it the ability to be such a great support system is it's massive firepower. Just look at the ZSU-23-4 and m163 VADS both systems can put out about 4,000 rounds a minute. Now just imagine that one of those systems begins to fire at you. Were do you go with all that power coming at you. Plus, its guns high elevation rate gives them the ability to hit targets in tall building. It is almost impossible to get away from. If a person were to survive a barrage from one, I almost think they would rather face a main battle tank.
Currently, the only country that is building a support vehicle with SPAAG characteristics is Russia. That being the BMPT which is designed for armor support. If you see it you cannot miss it. With two 30mm autocannons, grenade launchers, and anti-tank missiles it is something to behold. But, even it lacks to some degree. For instance the autocannons only fire about 400 rounds a minute. But, that's 400 per gun so you still have a large volume of fire. What I think hurts the BMPT the most is its guns lack of elevation which is just 45 degrees. The BMPT was designed to fight in urban areas and in some places that just isn't going to cut it. Some people say it's to big and expensive for its purpose. Because it's built on a T-72 chassis. But to me it seems the size and armor protection is its plus. It wouldn't surprise me to see versions of the BMPT start popping up from places like China and former eastern bloc countries.
My vision for this ISV in operation is as follows. It should be C-130 transportable with no time consuming preparation. It must be amphibious with no major prep. Be able to keep up with M1 tanks and M2/M3 Bradleys. Provide adequate protection from RPGs and IEDs. Be able to fight any were on earth and especially in urban built up area s with no problem. It must also be more affordable than the Bradley and Stryker MGS. The vehicle should be able to carry a large compliment of ammo with no problem while giving a crew of three the ability to be comfortable. The gun should be able to put out a large volume of fire and be able to suppress enemy infantry and light vehicles. A dozer blade should also be attached to deal with roadblocks and other debris.
With all the information I have gathered this how the ISV should be designed.
Chassis: BAE's upgraded M113 MTVL with 400hp Detroit Diesel
Chassis upgrades: The top of the hull would be raised approximately 1ft from behind the engine grill to the back of the vehicle. This is to accommodate ammo storage. The top of the hull would have three hatches on it directly behind the turret for the loader and two other hatches located at each corner above the ammo racks for ease of loading.
Turret: The turret would be able to hold one man and be electrically driven. The basic design would be a cross between a M163 VADS turret and a Chavvis turret. The bottom of the turret would ballistic steel that would go up to about the height of the commanders shoulder. The next segment would be ballistic glass giving the commander a complete 360 view. At the top of the turret would be angled ballistic glass to give the commander a 360 view to see targets such as snipers. The top of the turret would have a basic M113 hatch on it.
Weapons: Main armament would be dual GAU-19 .50 caliber miniguns with a elevation of +80 to -10. Rate of fire 1,000 to 2,000 rounds per minute per gun.
Secondary Armament: One rocket launcher containing four 83mm SMAW rockets. Warheads available Anti tank, Bunker Buster, and Thermobaric.
Defense Systems: Sniper Detection System, Slat armor, Anti Mine armor
Ammo Storage: 5,000 .50 caliber rounds per gun. 1,000 per gun on turret base 4,000 in stowage. Total .50 caliber ammo load 10,000 rounds. 12 SMAW rockets 4 in the launcher 8 in stowage.
Support Items: Dozer blade acts as trim when amphibious. 1 collapsible rail crane to load ammo canisters. Infantry Phone
Crew: 3 Commander/Gunner, Driver, Loader
With what information put out can you guys tell me the pros and cons of this system. Anything would be appreciated.
 
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WarNerd       11/5/2007 5:08:19 AM
A few concerns:
 
?   I can see that you want the ultimate suppressive fire vehicle, but dual GAU-19 so you can lay down 4000rpm is definitely overkill.  One should be sufficient.
?   I am also concerned the weight and bulk of 10,000 rounds of .50cal ammo, in presumably 1000 round drums. 
?   I note that you have include "1 collapsible rail crane to load ammo canisters".  You are not clear as to whether it is to load the cannister on to the vehicle or into the mount.  How much does a 1000 round cannister weight?  What would be involved and how long would it take to swap out 2 empty cannister from the mount?
?   The SMAW rockets maximum elevation will be limited because the exhaust would impact and spread on the vehicle roof at high elevations endangering the crew and nearby troops.
?   Most AAA mounts are open top for a reason.  You will need a complicated articulating set of armor to permit high elevation fire without leaving opening that snipers can exploit, and it is unlikely that it can be made gas tight.  Most of it will be ballistic glass in your design, so flat pieces only.
?   Your commander/gunner is locked in an ballistic glass green house with a massive heat generating weapon, better add a powerful air conditioning system.
?   Add a full sensor system (light intensification, FLIR, etc.)
 
 
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flamingknives       11/5/2007 1:48:19 PM
I'd take 30mm at 800 rounds per minute over 12.7mm at 4000 rpm. The reason being that the 30mm will have better range and more destructive effect, since 2.3 times the calibre equals 13 times the volume to put explosives and clever fuses in.

The SMAWs are a nice idea, but you end up with no anti-armour capacity beyond perhaps 400m. 

If you want high elevation, a remote turret would make more sense, coupled with distributed sensors fused into a composite image for the crew.
 
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Shirrush    Feh!   11/5/2007 2:07:52 PM
How will you support the infantry if you don't even have a coffee machine in the back of vehicle, eh?
 
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32degrees       11/5/2007 7:23:07 PM
The choice for the GAU-19 came from its use on the HMMWV. General Dynamics makes a mount for it with one GAU-19 and 800 rounds stored on the outside of the turret. I believe the the ammo canister is fixed and you have to reload by hand out of normal 100 round .50 ammo cans. While you have a point that one Gau-19 would be enough I see it from this view. With the room that M113 MTVL provides why not add two guns for maximum suppression. The GAU-19 fires at a normal rate of 1,000 rpm the 2,000 is at cyclic and would soon break the gun down. For sustained fire 1,000 rpm would be great.. Thats about 32 rounds per second for both guns fired at one time the M2 .50 should only be fired at 40 rpm in a sustained fight. So, for instance say if a gunner had several targets firing at him from the third story of a building. He makes the decision to fire a 10 second burst at the targets that is about 320 12.7mm shells going down range. Now, look at his ammo expenditure 160 rounds from each magazine he now has 840 rounds left in each magazine and depending on the target major damage.
When it came time to reload the magazine the loader would disconnect the magazines from underneath the gunner and put them to the side. He would then go to the ammo racks and pull out a new canister that is rectangular in shape and the approximate weight is about 350 pounds. On the bottom of the canisters are rollers for ease of movement. He would then place the new cartridge under the gunner and lock it in and restring the belt. The time would take about 3 to 4 minutes to accomplish.
To reload the entire vehicle with ammo would be a relative easy process. As I mentioned the vehicle would come with a rail crane that could break down into three parts. The ISV is designed to be reloaded from the top into the ammo stowage racks.The crew would open two hatches on top and set the rail crane up. The first support beam would lock into the top of the roof of the ISV directly behind one of the hatches. Next, a M923 or similar truck would back up to the ISV and the second support beam would be placed in the bed of the truck the bottom would fit in large square base. Then the rail crane with attached winch would be locked onto the support beams. It could be raised and lowered according to the height of the cargo truck. At this point the ammo canisters could be transferred to the ISV. The ammo canisters would be lowered through the hatch into the ammo racks which hold four canisters. Then the process would be done through the other hatch. The crane would then be broken down and attached to the sides of the ISV.
The SMAW rockets would be set like the Bradleys TOW  launcher. Off to the side of the turret and be collapsible plus the SMAW comes in a version with low back blast. So there should be no major threat of back blast.
The turret would probable be open in some areas but the main concern would shifted to the gunner being able to spot targets. As far as gas the crew would have to wear a NBC suit when the threat is there. Heat would be problem but turrets are hot and uncomfortable. Had a friend in Desert Storm who was a tanker he lost like 20 pounds being locked up due to just sweating For some reason I left off all the night vision thermal equipment but that would be a must..

 
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00_Chem_AJB       11/5/2007 7:46:51 PM
The firing rate of the Shilka was much less than the achievable 4000 rounds a minute, mainly due to heating issues (the system was liquid cooled) The max firing rate was more in the order of 800 rounds a minute, 200 for each gun, not a bad thing as the tank only carried 2000 rounds. Ok enough of me being picky. First, your crew of 3, with the commander acting as a gunner, that is giving him alot to do, so while he is shooting up the first target he needs to be looking for the second and third, which isn't helpful if they are 180 degrees from where he his currently aiming. That also adds the problems of increasing the armour to accommodate another crew member, which in turn causes problems for air transportability. Second, I like your overall idea, but as already noted a larger calibre auto cannon would do a better job than those GUA-19s.
 
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Jeff_F_F       11/5/2007 9:09:09 PM

How will you support the infantry if you don't even have a coffee machine in the back of vehicle, eh?

LOL, you must have been an Artilleryman! perhaps FDC or an Observer?
 
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Jeff_F_F       11/5/2007 9:34:07 PM
My first thought was that it was intereting that you focused on AA guns, because toward the end of WWII the Germans built a light 30mm autmatic cannon called the MK 108 as an aircraft and antiaircraft gun. It fired a relatively low velocity cannon rouund at a muzzle energy that allowed it to use simple blowback operation. Today the descendent of that weapon is a ubiquitous presence in the American armed forces--the Mk 19 autmatic grenade launcher. Dismounted infantry support, HUMMVEEs, Stryker armored cars, and mounted on trucks, howizers, FASVs, etc., this weapons does it all.
 
Another thought is that if the most dangerous fire support weapon is basically a copy of the ZSU-23-4, the enemy is eventually going to stop shooting RPGs at it and start packing .50 sniper rifles and perforating it that way.
 
So, the question is, which do you primarily plan to operate with? Bradleys & M1s or Strykers? 
 
If you are operating with Strykers it should be based on the Stryker chassis. The M113 isn't going to keep up well with strykers on roads, even with a bigger engine, since there is so much extra stuff loaded on.
 
If you are going to operate with Bradleys and M1s base it on either an M1 or Bradley chassis, because the M113 chassis isn't going to be able to pack enough armor for the threat environment that those vehicles operate in.
 
Instead of a jack of all trades master one--or better yet make a version for each role.
 
Gatling guns are nice but there are better options. If you are supporting infantry I'd suggest thinking about what actually kills infantry. That's artillery. Tanks and other infantry just finish the job. Without effective artillery support your enemy's tanks and infantry will break themselves against your defenses. Defense is and always has been the stronger form of combat. The only way to change that is for your enemy to use the immobility that comes with an entrenched position to array massive offensive artillery firepower against you.
 
As such, I'd say base your weapon on the Millenium Gun. It has plenty of firepower and can also destroy incomming rounds. I'd say equip each vehicle with essentially a firefinder radar that calculates the aproximate impact point of the incomming rounds and compares that impact point with your blue force tracker map, then only attacks those incomming rounds that will hit near the units it is responsible for defending. Once the enemy attempts to move into an attack mode, then you can still use the autocannon against the enemy infantry and any light vehicles supporting the assault. One major weakness of a .50 cal weapon is that it cannot fire explosive ordinance. Hence it would also be unable to effectively engage advancing enemy infantry in dead space. An automatic cannon firing airbursting rounds would be very effective in this capacity.
 
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32degrees       11/5/2007 10:12:29 PM
00_Chem_AJB you have a good point about the command situation. I can see the need for an extra set of eyes. To save on space do you think a seated gunner position with a elevated commanders seat located directly behind the gunner would be good?  To save space only make his seat rotate tot the left and right and not go in a 360. What I mean is have his back directly against rear of the turret .
As far as the gun I tried to design a system that would be able to stay out in the field and be able fight several times during a day and not have to run back and forth to reload. I looked at several heavy firing guns that the US offers form 7.62mm miniguns to the 25mm Bushmaster. With key requirements such as range, volume of fire, hitting power, volume take up, and cartridge price. The best gun that proved its self was GAU-19.

 
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32degrees       11/5/2007 11:05:29 PM
Jeff_F_F you bring up some interesting ideas. When I first started on the idea I had something in mind of a system built on an M1 chassis. To look at it would resemble an M88 recovery vehicle with a unmanned turret housing dual 25mm Bushmasters and 2 ground to ground Hellfire rocket pods on either side of the turret. But as I studied more into it I looked at history and current conflicts also possible end users of the system it became apparent that it needed to be highly mobile and affordable. Something that the Airborne could take with them and something that you might see 15 years from inception in the hands of the IDF or NATO. A vehicle that would fight in places that a M1, Bradley, and Stryker could not. A true goto vehicle.
One thing you and others have brought up is a larger gun system with the ability to carry HE rounds. When I was working on the turret design an option I looked into was 1 GAU-19 and 1 40mm grenade launcher for better use against infantry but I worried about it being useful against concrete walls. I had information that if they strike at the wrong angle they wouldn't go off. Thats one of the reasons I included the SMAW launcher with thermobaric rockets besides being used to fire into buildings I had heard they are effective in the open

 
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MadMilitaryMind       11/6/2007 3:28:32 AM
Actually the Army already looked into an Anti air version of the M1 I have a PDF of it on another hard drive.
it was pretty impressive, used a modified M1 turret  but with dual  30mm chainguns in place of the 120mm had a 6 pack AA missile pod on its middle left side that could be retracted into the turret and a radar dish in the back wear the 120 rounds would normally be stored, and the tank commander had a XM307 ACSW Advanced Crew-Served Weapon. IIRC it was rejected in favor or the Bradley Linebacker. Personally I liked the Idea but I would have replaces the 6 pack with an omni launcher that could handle Javelin, Stinger, Starstreak, Guided rockets and possibly Hellfire's.


 
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WarNerd       11/6/2007 5:25:14 AM
The 30mm chainguns with explosive projectiles and a smart fuse with variable settings may be superior to the .50cal for 2 other reasons:
 
?   Explosive shells are much better than solid slugs for creating a breach if they detonate within the wall being breached.
 
?   Limiting penetration/overkill.  This is a big problem in builtup areas, and the .50cal has a bit of a problem here.  I have seen a number of articles (mostly in Armor magazine) where it has been noted that when you fire a building with a .50cal it is capable of easily penetrating 6 to 10 walls and causing unintended casualties.  This was seen as such a problem that some felt 120mm HEAT rounds were preferable in many situations to limit civilian casualties.  The shrapnel from a round that explodes after penetrating a wall generally will not penetrate more than 1 more wall.
 
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verong       11/6/2007 7:16:20 PM
a combo of MK-19 and M2 seems to work just fine on the M-1117
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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