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Subject: Invention of main battle tanks ?
bravoss    10/27/2007 8:20:26 AM
I read about WW2 tanks and I noticed that after the WW2 the categories such as light tank, medium tank and heavy tank disappeared. What category of WW2 tanks is closest to main battle tanks ? Medium tanks were mobile, had good armor and armament but were inferior in armor and armament when compared to slower heavy tanks ? Is main battle something like combination between a heavy tank and a medium tank having in mind that they are heavier than ww2 heavy tanks but still very fast and mobile while having good armor and armament ? In WW2, not looking at the cost effectivness and numbers which tanks were better the heavy tanks or the medium tanks ?
 
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andyf       10/27/2007 12:47:50 PM
i think the idea is that its an all-purpose tank, that can deal with most situations
and you dont end up needing a heavy tank when you only have a light one
 
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flamingknives       10/27/2007 1:54:38 PM
I think that the closest match to the light/medium/heavy classes for an MBT is that the development of heavies armour and firepower stood still so that the mobility could catch up and make them as mobile as a medium.

It's worth noting that the US, UK and USSR continued development of heavies for a period after the genesis of the MBT, in the M103, Conqueror and IS series respectively. However, with the development of more powerful guns for the MBTs (particularly guns of 100mm and upwards) the heavies became too slow to keep up and maintain their useful armour advantage.
 
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Herald1234    Sherman lesson   10/27/2007 3:43:24 PM
MBTs came out of the WW II experience when the major fighting armies noticed that their best armor tended to be a general purpose compromise gun tank that they could mass produce as an expendable item for ANY mission. For the Russians this was the T-34. For the Allies this was the Sherman. For the Germans this should have been the PZKW IV and later the PZKW V, but they were idiots. Follow ons for the bumbling Americans should have been either the M-27 Grierson or the M-26 Pershing. The British were late with their Comet, and the Russians were tardy with the T-45/54. The Russians further wasted a lot of resources on the entirely unnecessary Ioseph Stalins and poorly designed KVs. 
 
The MBT concept rattled around for a while; as the various confused armies worked out why the idea worked, but by 1944, it was quite apparent to anybody with a clue, that it was the medium tank that was doing 75% of the armor work [fighting each other and close infantry support], while armored cars did the other 25% [scouting].
 
What makes it particularly bad, is that the bumbling Americans who were more or less a Sherman force by accident and stumbled into the correct solution, diverted a huge amount of their resources into "tank destroyers". If nothing else they should have built even more Shermans and armored cars and installed better DP guns in their standard medium tank. Them's the breaks. The American tank fiasco is as bad as the torpedo debacle in history of American militrary logistics; maybe worse as it's outcome resulted in far more American battle deaths.
 
Herald        
 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/27/2007 5:32:34 PM
The Soviets had their bad share when it came to effective tanks, like Herlad said, they wasted alot of time with KVs and IS tanks while being slow with the T-44. The problem with the T-44 and many other of their late war tanks was the relative lack of AP firepower, their D-10 should of been brought into service alot sooner and not just for the SU-100, but for the T-44.
 
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bravoss       10/27/2007 5:57:20 PM
Thanks for the info people. When looking at the quality side of things, and not numbers in WW2, were the heavy tanks superior to medium battle tanks(I know that they had better armor and firepower but were much less mobile) in head on battle ? Is it like the Germans put more effort in quality but because of high price and long building time, quantity was low and the Allies did the opposite?  What I get from the stuff I read the MBT is an evolution of medium tanks, because the same philosophy is used, it has to be versatile(balance of mobility,firepower and armor).
 
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bravoss       10/27/2007 6:01:16 PM
In your opinion are tanks such as IS-2, KV-2 or Tiger all in all better than mediums such as T-34 ?
 
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bravoss       10/27/2007 6:03:58 PM
If the heavies were better altough they were much less mobile, why is todays philosophy to build versatile tanks with balance of mobility, armor and firepower instead of following example of heavy tanks and putting the big gun and heavy armor at the cost of mobility ? Only because of price and because it's hard to produce or the heavies weren't better than the mediums in most situations( except when defending, being a static gun platfom).  Thanks.
 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/27/2007 7:13:24 PM

In your opinion are tanks such as IS-2, KV-2 or Tiger all in all better than mediums such as T-34 ?


The KV-2 and IS tanks were no more than heavy break through tanks designed to lob high explosives, for tank on tank the T-34 was better suited though lacked the proper gun for the job. The Tiger was too big for its own good though feared by the end of the war it was out classed, in fact the Panther was superior to all these tanks, and it was a medium tank.
 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/27/2007 7:36:24 PM
Ok, the concept of the MBT came about at around the same time on both sides of the Iron Curtin, NATO was expected to fight defensively, while the Soviets were expected to roll across Europe using massive tank spearheads. It is foolish to say that all NATO tanks favoured heavy armour and firepower to mobility. The point of the main battle tank is to achieve an equal balance between the three. Of all the NATO nations the US and Germany achieved this balance, while British tanks favoured heavy armour and firepower to hold positions. Excellent engine and suspension design and engineering allowed the US and German tanks of the 1980's; M1 and Leopard 2 to possess great mobility despite their heavy weight. The Soviet Union's tanks where on the other hand much smaller and lighter and tended to favour mobility, but for their size they did good firepower and armour though inferior quality did given Western tanks an edge, though as we all know the Soviets had numbers. By the 70's the Soviets started fielding tanks which were of much better quality, on paper, to pervious designs, they were better armed and armoured while still maintaining their light weight and mobility, however when the M1, Leopard 2 and Challenger started to appear the West once again were ahead of the Soviets in overall quality.
 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/27/2007 7:46:49 PM

If the heavies were better altough they were much less mobile, why is todays philosophy to build versatile tanks with balance of mobility, armor and firepower instead of following example of heavy tanks and putting the big gun and heavy armor at the cost of mobility ? Only because of price and because it's hard to produce or the heavies weren't better than the mediums in most situations( except when defending, being a static gun platfom).  Thanks.

Ok I think I missed your question. The Soviets found that the T-54/55 preformed much better than the IS-3, infact the IS-3's only advantage was slightly better overall armour  protection, while it was slower, a relatively poor performer when it came to fighting tanks, and costs a lot more and there was much less of them. Remember the idea behind heavy tanks was to break defensive positions, if your medium tanks can do that at a similar level, whilst effectively accomplish other tasks what is the point of a heavy tank?
 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/27/2007 7:52:27 PM
To repair my crap English on my earlier post:

 Ok, the concept of the MBT came about at around the same time on both sides of the Iron Curtin, NATO was expected to fight defensively, while the Soviets were expected to roll across Europe using massive tank spearheads. It is foolish to say that all NATO tank designs favoured heavy armour and firepower to mobility, the point of the main battle tank is to achieve an equal balance between the three. Of all the NATO nations the US and Germany achieved this balance, while British tanks favoured heavy armour and firepower to hold positions. Excellent engine and suspension design and engineering allowed the US and German tanks of the 1980's; M1 and Leopard 2 to possess great mobility despite their heavy weight. The Soviet Union's tanks where on the other hand much smaller and lighter and tended to favour mobility, but for their size they did have good firepower and armour though inferior quality did give Western tanks an edge. However as we all know the Soviets had numbers on their side. By the 70's the Soviets started fielding tanks which were of much better quality, on paper, to pervious designs, they were better armed and armoured while still maintaining their light weight and mobility, however when the M1, Leopard 2 and Challenger started to appear the West once again were ahead of the Soviets in overall quality.

 
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verong       10/27/2007 10:24:38 PM
Hey Folks,
 
The MBT varies from country to country. It refers to the primary battle tank of a given combat force example: 1980's US Army 82 nd AB div had m551 sheridans as its MBT even though it was a Light tank at the time. some countries use armored cars as there MBT such as the Saladin.
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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flamingknives       10/28/2007 6:26:49 AM
Definition of a "Battle Tank" is roughly as follows:

"Battle tanks are tracked, heavily armored vehicles weighing at least 16.5 metric tons and equipped with a 360-degree traverse turret and gun of at least 75 millimeters caliber."


 
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bravoss       10/28/2007 7:07:58 AM
For the Sheridan, it might be considered as the main  tank by of the division it was attached to, because that was the main fighting vehicle of its division, but you can also look at the MBT as type of tank, which as Chem said makes a balance of mobility, firepower and protection, so the Sheridan isn't MBT by type it's rather a light tank but was a main tank in the division where it was used. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One thing that seems strange to me is that the categorisation of tanks by weight is not really done by it's weight, it's more by its role. For example the Panther is classified as a medium tank altough it weighs almost the same as IS-2 which is classified as heavy tank, altough the Panther was medium when compared to Tiger. Is it more of a role classification then real weight classification ? For example by mediums you think about tanks that had good armor, firepower but were also pretty mobile while heavy tanks are heavily armored, had big guns but were pretty slow and much less mobile?

 
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00_Chem_AJB       10/28/2007 7:22:45 AM

One thing that seems strange to me is that the categorisation of tanks by weight is not really done by it's weight, it's more by its role. For example the Panther is classified as a medium tank altough it weighs almost the same as IS-2 which is classified as heavy tank, altough the Panther was medium when compared to Tiger. Is it more of a role classification then real weight classification ? For example by mediums you think about tanks that had good armor, firepower but were also pretty mobile while heavy tanks are heavily armored, had big guns but were pretty slow and much less mobile?

The Soviets classed tanks by weight, so they called the Panther a heavy tank, other armies did class their tanks by role. But to forfill their roles heavy tanks had to be heavy, like I have been saying heavy tanks are line breakers.

 
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