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Subject: Strykers Wiped Out in Iraq
dynmicpara    10/5/2007 10:24:58 AM
Recent troop losses in Iraq raise new questions about Stryker
By ROBERT H. REID
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITERS
May 14, 2007


BAGHDAD -- A string of heavy losses from powerful roadside bombs has
raised new questions about the vulnerability of the Stryker, the Army's
troop-carrying vehicle hailed by supporters as the key to a leaner, more
mobile force.

Since the Strykers went into action in violent Diyala province north of
Baghdad two months ago, losses of the vehicles have been rising steadily, U.S. officials said.

A single infantry company in Diyala lost five Strykers this month in less than a week, according to soldiers familiar with the losses, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to release the information. The overall number of Strykers lost recently is classified.

In one of the biggest hits, six American soldiers based at Fort Lewis, WA, and a journalist were killed when a huge bomb exploded beneath their Stryker on May 6. It was the biggest one-day loss for the battalion in more than two years.

"We went for several months with no losses and were very proud of that," a senior Army official said in Washington, speaking on condition of
anonymity because he is not authorized to comment publicly. "Since then,
there have been quite a few Stryker losses."

"They are learning how to defeat them," the Army official said of Iraqi
insurgents.

The Army introduced the $11 billion, eight-wheeled Stryker in 1999 as the cornerstone of a ground force of the future -- hoping to create faster, more agile armored units than tank-equipped units, but with more firepower and protection than light-infantry units.

But the Army and the Marines are already looking for something different
that can survive big roadside bombs -- the main threat to soldiers in Iraq -- meaning the Stryker's high-profile status as the Army's "next generation" vehicle may be short-lived.

"It is indeed an open question if the Stryker is right for this type of
warfare," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior analyst with the Brookings
Institution. "I am inclined to think that the concept works better for
peacekeeping. But based on data the Army has made available to date,
it's hard to be sure."

Supporters of the Strykers, which have been used in Iraq since late
2003, say the vehicles that carry two crew members and 11 infantrymen
offer mobility, firepower and comfort.

Lighter and faster than tracked vehicles like tanks, each Stryker can rush soldiers quickly to a fight, enabling commanders to maintain security over a wide area with relatively fewer troops. Humvees can carry only four soldiers -- and are more vulnerable to bombs even when their armor is upgraded.

"I love Strykers," said Spc. Christopher Hagen, based in Baqouba. "With
Strykers, you're mobile, you're fast. You can get anywhere anytime. They
bring a lot of troops to the fight."

But some analysts have long questioned the wisdom of moving away from
more heavily armored tracked vehicles like tanks and Bradley fighting
vehicles to wheeled transports, like the Stryker. They say that is especially true in Iraq, where powerful bombs -- not rocket-propelled grenades or small arms fire -- are the main threat.

"The Stryker vehicle was conceived at a time when the Army was more
concerned about mobility and agility than it was about protection," said
Loren Thompson, a military analyst from the Lexington Institute. "Stryker was the answer to that need."

The Stryker's vulnerabilities have become increasingly apparent since a
battalion of about 700 soldiers and nearly 100 Stryker vehicles from the
Army's 2nd Infantry Division was sent to Diyala province in March to bolster an infantry brigade struggling to restore order there.

Trouble started as soon as the Strykers arrived in Baqouba, the provincial capital of Diyala. U.S. commanders ordered the vehicles into Baqouba's streets at dawn the day after they arrived. The hope was that the large, menacing vehicles -- armed with a heavy machine gun and a 105mm cannon -- would intimidate insurgents and reassure local residents.

Instead, insurgents hammered the Strykers with automatic weapons fire,
rocket-propelled grenades and a network of roadside bombs. By the end of that first day, one American soldier was dead, 12 were wounded and two Strykers were destroyed.

A few days before the May 6 attack that killed the six soldiers and a Russian journalist, troops scrambled out of another damaged Stryker and
took cover in a house while they watched the vehicle burn. Several of
them were injured but none seriously.

Losses have since mounted.

A few days after the May 6 blast, two Strykers were hit by bombs, and
one soldier was killed and another was seriously wounded.

Lt. Col. Bruce Antonio, who commands a Stryker battalion in Diyala, said
he and soldiers still have confidence in the Strykers and noted they have survived many bombs, which the military calls improvised explosive device[s] or IEDs. But Antonio said some insurgents had found "the right mix of explosives and IED positioning to inflict severe damage on the vehicle." He also noted that tanks had also proved vulnerable too.

The insurgents also apparently are becoming better at hiding the devices -- the IED that killed the six soldiers and the journalist was believed hidden in a sewer line. To add potency, insurgents surrounded the device
with cement to channel the blast force up into the tank, according to
soldiers familiar with the investigation.

Supporters of the Strykers say all that proves that it's the lethality of bombs in Iraq -- not the Strykers themselves -- that are the problem:
The bombs are now so powerful that even Abrams main battle tanks are
vulnerable to some of them.

"I'm not sure if it's any reflection on the (Stryker) but rather on how things are getting worse" in Iraq, according to a senior Democratic
congressional staffer who tracks Army programs, who spoke on condition
of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak publicly.

Stryker soldiers said that when they were based in Mosul in the north,
roadside bombs weren't so big -- often, little more than pipe bombs. In
Baqouba, the bombs are bigger and buried deeper, making them difficult
to detect.

"With what we got hit with the other day, it wouldn't have mattered what
we were in," said Spc. John Pearce, speaking of the May 6 bomb. "We were going to take casualties, regardless."

Either way, the Army and Marine Corps already are pushing for new Mine
Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, or MRAPS, whose V-shaped hulls are
designed to deflect bomb blasts outward, rather than through the vehicle.
The Pentagon has requested nearly 7,800 of the new vehicles at a cost of
$8.4 billion and is considering ordering thousands more to give soldiers
better protection.

Such moves, however, serve only to reinforce the views of critics, who
believe the Army opted for a vehicle that was useful in Balkan peacekeeping or other "low threat" missions but is inadequate in so-called "asymmetric warfare," where a weaker opponent devises simple tools to exploit a strong opponent's weak points.

"As long as the Stryker-equipped light infantry was used... against lightly armed insurgents, there was no problem," said retired Col. Douglas Macgregor, who writes on defense issues. "Now, they are being tossed into the urban battle where only tracked armor can survive."

-- Reid reported from Baghdad and Flaherty from Washington. Associated Press reporters Todd Pitman in Diyala in Iraq and Pauline Jelinek in Washington also contributed to this report.

 
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flamingknives       10/5/2007 11:33:37 AM
Err, Sparky?
"With what we got hit with the other day, it wouldn't have mattered what
we were in," said Spc. John Pearce, speaking of the May 6 bomb. "We were going to take casualties, regardless." 

Did you read that bit?
 
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JFKY    Flamingknives   10/5/2007 3:10:18 PM
He read none of it....He doesn't have to.  He KNOWS Stryker is awful.  It's wheeled, it's a product of the corrupt military system, it's not something that Soldiers for the Truth or Airborne Studies Group, or the like advanced...mostly it's not something HE likes, so ergo it is awful kit.   Basically, if Department of Defense is "fer" it, "it" must be flawed and therefore "it' must be opposed.  So IF DoD advances the Stryker, the Stryker is bad.
 
I think debating with him is going to be like the debates between Herald and French Stratege, "dynmicpara" "knows" what he "knows" and it's not really about discussion it's about preaching...preaching the Gospel that DoD is stoopit, that most anything DoD advances is wrong, and defense reformers such as himself are the "true soldiers" and they must be followed, for they have the Holy Writ.
 
Truth be told, if you can't tell, I really get tired of their schtick.  NO group Mod, DoD, or SFFT are ever ALL right, and a group that basically says I'm right and they are wrong is going to be very suspect in my eyes.  I might point out that many of their ideas are PRE-War, and that if they had such a great set of ideas, you might see units in Iraq following their precepts.  I don't read a lot of folks in Iraq writing about how
they found the ideas posted on SFFT or Airborne Studies invaluable to their service.  Further, I'd say that many of those folks are "peacetime" soldiers, and they have theories.  I don't see their theories being put into practice, by the war-time soldiers.  And I know that as a NON-soldier that's very presumptuous of me, but it's how I see it.
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/5/2007 4:11:27 PM
And like big bombs are something new... I saw a pic practically from the beginning of the war of an Abrams with one side shredded parked on the lip of a small swimming pool--er bomb crater. But the talling points are "its getting worse not better" so that's what they are going to report.
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/5/2007 4:15:10 PM
And 5 vehicles taken out isn't wiped out. Even 5 vehicles destroyed wouldn't be wiped out. It sounds from the report that there were 2 vehicles destroyed, one with the loss of the crew, one with minor casualties, and the reset were just out of action for 3 days. Any time you are fighting to take ground that is held by the enemy you are going to take losses. Stupid reporting.
 
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verong       10/5/2007 6:21:42 PM
Hey Folks,
 
The Armored humvee and stryker force the enemy to expose himself by forcing him to go bigger. they are not perfect!!
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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dynmicpara    Truth in Advocacy vs. Relativity   10/6/2007 9:53:23 AM
Cause ----> Effect reasoning is transparent and open to scrutiny.
 
"This, then that, maybe this, no sometimes that" is REALITIVITY and synthesis that has no logic but is a matter of personal preference; "I like wheeled trucks because they are good. Trucks are good because I like them".  Circular illogic.
 
The ultimate detachment from reality is now possible by a mouse-click thanks to the home computer enabling those without a conscience or integrity grounded in cause--->effect reality to "relativize" to their sophistic glee.
 
Problem for the reality-shape-shifters is that external reality indeed does exist and vetoes non-sense, to date the wheeled truck butcher's bill is 4, 000+ dead and 24, 000+ wounded from a wheeled CONOPS in Iraq/Afghanistan.
 
A trip to Walter Reed or the burn ward in Texas might enlighten the wheeled trucksters, but then again maybe not---as it could be excused away as self-validating c'est la guerre. Patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel.
 
Adults who realize we live in a real, objective world where life is precious want c'est la VICTORY with living heroes not dead ones, and are willing to adapt to real situations with ALL options on the table to prevail in play.     
 
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dynmicpara    Truth in Advocacy vs. Relativity   10/6/2007 9:54:23 AM
Oops--typo: "relativity"
 
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verong       10/6/2007 10:01:17 PM

Cause ----> Effect reasoning is transparent and open to scrutiny.

 

"This, then that, maybe this, no sometimes that" is REALITIVITY and synthesis that has no logic but is a matter of personal preference; "I like wheeled trucks because they are good. Trucks are good because I like them".  Circular illogic.

 

The ultimate detachment from reality is now possible by a mouse-click thanks to the home computer enabling those without a conscience or integrity grounded in cause--->effect reality to "relativize" to their sophistic glee.

 

Problem for the reality-shape-shifters is that external reality indeed does exist and vetoes non-sense, to date the wheeled truck butcher's bill is 4, 000+ dead and 24, 000+ wounded from a wheeled CONOPS in Iraq/Afghanistan.

 

A trip to Walter Reed or the burn ward in Texas might enlighten the wheeled trucksters, but then again maybe not---as it could be excused away as self-validating c'est la guerre. Patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

Adults who realize we live in a real, objective world where life is precious want c'est la VICTORY with living heroes not dead ones, and are willing to adapt to real situations with ALL options on the table to prevail in play.     


Okay we could have bought nothing and had 140,000 casualties. some armor is better than none. I can remember at the begining on specialforces.net I suggested a guy to uparmor his humvee with reinforcing v cap and steel plate about two day latter he post a thank you for his squad in that uparmored humvee was sprayed with MG fire which none even hit the soldiers thanks to the uparmor " hillbilly" . the real question is how many have never been injured because the armor was there????
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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Herald1234    Reality check   10/7/2007 12:06:52 AM
You can't have an all tracked force, M-113 nut.
 
Its called LOGISTICS.
 
Add to that that you can't AFFORD all the mechanics you need to handle something as complex as a track.
 
And your beloved  track laying coffin is perforatable by autocannon fire and is suicidally vilnerable to mines.
 
That is from somebody who deals in RELATIVITY by the way.
 
Don't try to BS your way through this one.
 
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flamingknives       10/7/2007 6:26:44 AM
It goes back further than military logistics.

The military is a small market where only a few companies, and sometimes only a few people, have the necessary skills and capabilities to do the work - the military is the only place that needs heavy vehicles on high-speed tracks, so the people who design and produce suitable tracks need to maintain their expertise somehow, which is where the pork barrel can come in. If the only work was refitting M113s, each contract would be more expensive as the companies would need to have money for the lean periods.

The specialisation of military tracks also explains the rise of the wheel. As many more people work with wheels than tracks, there is more innovation and low-cost quality control in that industry sector, so despite the seeming increase in complexity, wheels are more reliable.

On top of this, if a wheel is shot through, blown off, set on fire or just plain stops working, on most armoured, wheeled vehicles, there are 5+ more to take up the work. If a track goes (and a track life is orders of magnitude less than a wheel) that vehicle is immobilised until you can repair and replace it. it's even worse if it is a band track, as these can only be replaced as a complete unit, and they are not small items to carry around.
 
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flamingknives       10/7/2007 6:26:45 AM
It goes back further than military logistics.

The military is a small market where only a few companies, and sometimes only a few people, have the necessary skills and capabilities to do the work - the military is the only place that needs heavy vehicles on high-speed tracks, so the people who design and produce suitable tracks need to maintain their expertise somehow, which is where the pork barrel can come in. If the only work was refitting M113s, each contract would be more expensive as the companies would need to have money for the lean periods.

The specialisation of military tracks also explains the rise of the wheel. As many more people work with wheels than tracks, there is more innovation and low-cost quality control in that industry sector, so despite the seeming increase in complexity, wheels are more reliable.

On top of this, if a wheel is shot through, blown off, set on fire or just plain stops working, on most armoured, wheeled vehicles, there are 5+ more to take up the work. If a track goes (and a track life is orders of magnitude less than a wheel) that vehicle is immobilised until you can repair and replace it. it's even worse if it is a band track, as these can only be replaced as a complete unit, and they are not small items to carry around.
 
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kensohaski       10/7/2007 7:56:47 AM
The OP is full of what I flushed this morning! 
 
The Stryker is an effective and dangerous (to our enemies) weapon.  Victories are many and losses are few. 
 
Reporters are reporters, they lead with what bleeds.  Reporting on minor losses brings the various media outlets readers, advertisers and cash.  The DOD is rightfully ignoring the media and carrying out their mission. 
 
When used properly the Stryker is a fine weapon.  It was not made to combat enemy armor.  The DOD leaves that to the M-1.
 
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B.Smitty       10/7/2007 2:34:20 PM

Either way, the Army and Marine Corps already are pushing for new Mine
Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, or MRAPS, whose V-shaped hulls are
designed to deflect bomb blasts outward, rather than through the vehicle.
The Pentagon has requested nearly 7,800 of the new vehicles at a cost of
$8.4 billion and is considering ordering thousands more to give soldiers
better protection.

What?  You mean the Army and Marines want to buy more armored trucks instead of bringing back the M113 Super Gavin!  Blasphemy! 

You mean all weapons systems have counters?!  Who'da thunk. 
 
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Claymore       10/7/2007 3:55:28 PM
This original poster has an agenda, a lame one at that. I don't know of anyone anywhere who wants to still ride around in an M113
 
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doggtag    getting back on track & trying to stay serious (but avoiding ranting about it)   10/8/2007 3:00:07 PM

It goes back further than military logistics.

The military is a small market where only a few companies, and sometimes only a few people, have the necessary skills and capabilities to do the work - the military is the only place that needs heavy vehicles on high-speed tracks, so the people who design and produce suitable tracks need to maintain their expertise somehow, which is where the pork barrel can come in. If the only work was refitting M113s, each contract would be more expensive as the companies would need to have money for the lean periods.

The specialisation of military tracks also explains the rise of the wheel. As many more people work with wheels than tracks, there is more innovation and low-cost quality control in that industry sector, so despite the seeming increase in complexity, wheels are more reliable.

On top of this, if a wheel is shot through, blown off, set on fire or just plain stops working, on most armoured, wheeled vehicles, there are 5+ more to take up the work. If a track goes (and a track life is orders of magnitude less than a wheel) that vehicle is immobilised until you can repair and replace it. it's even worse if it is a band track, as these can only be replaced as a complete unit, and they are not small items to carry around.

Thing here is,
we can argue wheels vs tracks to death.
But the end all is, the majority of FCS platforms will be...yes, tracked.
And bandtracked, no less. And with the major players (MCS, NLOS-M, NLOS-C) being two-man platforms, fixing these things when they break down out in the field will be no small headache (can two guys actually manhandle a thrown bandtrack? Lighter weight or not, that's still a helluva lot of bulk).
 
Seems the only wheeled vehicles the FCS program will see is that mechanical pack MULE, and its on again, off again  robotic armed recce/scout buggy sibling.
 
Much as I view the F/A-18 EFG Super Hornets to the F-35 program as how I see the Stryker to the FCS: initially conceived as interim and stopgap systems designed to tide us over whilst waiting on the real deals (JSF, FCS).
But just as the Super Hornet procurements has allowed something to fall back on and almost actually allow delays in the JSF, so too the procurement of so many IBCT SBCTs will in no small part allow for even greater delays in the FCS procurement: "Why rush FCS when Strykers seem to be working fine?", will be the argument.
 
This isn't the first time that the military leadership, as well as the supporting politicians, had longterm plans sidetracked by nearterm interim solutions: "If we buy more of these now at a cheaper price, we can further delay our originally-planned program, which is going to cost more money per vehicxle down the road due to inflation, which then justifies cutbacks to mean less vehicles because of rising costs per unit, which then thru the cycle of perpetual procurement thus dicates we by more of the NOW system today, rather than risk wasting even more money on the LATER systems tomorrow... thus the cycle continues.
 
Everything is an interim design until its replacement comes along.
But the more we find ourselves being content bein g fooled into accepting quick fixes in the here and now, all we do is delay ourselves goals we set up to strive for down the road.
Just as numerous other programs over the years, I expect FCS to slowly piss away to Crusader and Comanche status, in the end offering little more than a distant hope, and a lot of wasted money for all the more tech we spin out of it (where has the promise of long range artillery tech that Crusader supposedly left us, or pilot's helmet mounted displays that Comanche offered, or the fact that we've had a greater technological base to drwa from in the quest for gun-fired PGMs, even to the point of programs proving their potential a couple decades ago, yet today numerous competitors are spinning out their own precision guidance kits on par with, or even with the potential to exceed, ours...
 
That's OK, we can sacrifice FCS, when Stryker is obviously winning more people's hearts and minds (to the point several politicians and military leaders are mulling over the concept of creating another couple SBCTs within various other states' National Guards).
 
No, Sparky, you haven't won me over.
You have some good ideas, but your marketting ability sucks.
The M113 is no where near the epitome of the perfect AFV you make it out to be.
Nor is the Stryker the picture of perfection others try to pawn it off as.
 
When are a lot of people ever going to realize: the whole flaw in an airmobile military force isn't in 20 ton vehicles (we've already learned that's no perfect numerical figure in and of itself: 20 tons means nothing in terms of protection and survivability; it's nothing more than a nice round number that looks good on paper), but in the mediocre transport that everyone thinks is some magical battlefield saving grace, the C-130.
Which, like the M113, is only really superior at anything because it's been marketted so well, found so many customers, and seen so much success simply because it has no other real competitior.
 
The flaw isn't that we can't design an adequate-enough, even superior, ground vehicle for a given weight range. The flaw is the current air transport fleet that foolish visionaries think will fly it by the brigades all around the world in a week's time, to the point we design said AFV so close to said transport's safe operational limits, believing that it doesn't matter because our (currently waning) in flight refueling capabilities are somehow unlimited and fed from an infinite fuel supply to do it.
 
GDLS didn't F... over the US Army with the Stryker concept, Mike.
LockMart, and in no small part the USAF, F...ed over the Army by continuing with the C-130, when a much more capable design in the AMST was the airlift solution we only wish we had now. It's 25+ ton payload would've alleviated every payload shortcoming even the C-130J suffers from, both in regards to the Stryker in its uparmored form, and the FCS with its ever-increasing weight (going on 27 tons now).
 
 
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