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Subject: Tank support
murabit821    9/18/2007 7:06:11 PM
I put question to all armoured branch members

what is your opinion about organic support(or organic infantry) for tank company ?

like french army where Tank company have Direct support platoon
which is like infantry but it is not regular french infantry

Direct support platoon
- HQ in VBL (commander and driver-radio)
3x Direct support squad
VAB with 20mm cannon
- squad leader
- driver
- gunner 20mm canon
- LRAC gunner (anti tank rocket launcher)
- FRF2 sniper
- 2x Rifleman

total 23 soldiers (3xVAB , VBL)

regular infantry platoon have (4xVAB(or AMX10) and 39 soldiers

thaks
 
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murabit821       10/8/2007 6:18:50 PM
hm nobody answer i am sad :((

ok let start look from another side

cooperation between infantry and tanks

experience ? knowledge ? skills ?

and possible smallest combined (infantry and tanks) team ? size ? battalion, company or platoon

thanks

 
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YelliChink       10/8/2007 6:44:21 PM
French used to have the lightest, i.e. most worst protected, tanks among Western Armies since WW2. However, if used right, even AMX-13 company can be dangerous to most advanced tank units of the time. It seems to me that French Army abandoned the idea and pursuited modern MBT design in 1980s, but Leclerc is still a lot lighter than Challenger 1/2, Leopard 2 (especially A5/A6) and M1A1/A2. Actually, Japan's Type 90, Korean's XK2 MBT and PLA's ZTZ-99 are in the same league as Leclerc.
 
Having a "tank support infantry" embeded in a tank company doesn't make much sense to me. In actual combat planning, tank companies are always embeded to infantry units to form task forces. Platoon, Company and Batallion are administrative organizations, not necessarily, and often not, the exact combat order. Also, given the establishment listed, it seems to me that, after discounting the CO, Master Chief and XO, the rest 20 people are mostly company NCOs who take care of different company-level duties such as human resource, logistics book keeping, ammunition etc. In other armies, it might be called HQ team or HQ platoon. It seems to me that the "Direct Support" here means logistic and administrative support, not combat support.
 
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YelliChink       10/8/2007 6:47:11 PM

Forgot to mention that there might be a embeded recon team (3-10 soldiers) in a company. Since these people receive different training and are usually most senior NCOs (except Sarge in platoons and the Master Chief) in a company, they operate independently from the rest of the company. That's why they have FR-F2.

 
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murabit821       10/8/2007 7:22:14 PM
i know is normal atached infantry platoon to tank company or tank platoon to infantry company but this is temporary , i try think about organic special designed combat support element to tank units

here french tank company


ESCADRON DE CHARS DU GE 40  04-23-60 = 87

PELOTON de COMMANDEMENT et de LOGISTIQUE. (Command AND LOGISTIC PLATOON)
Groupe commandement (command group) 1xVBL, 1xP4, 1xTruck
Groupe administratif. (3x Trucks with trailers (kitchen, water, cargo)
Groupe logistique.(1x P4)
Groupe santé.
Groupe transmissions. (1x VAB , 2x Motorcycle)
Équipage de char du capitaine (1xMBT for Company commander)

PELOTON d'APPUI DIRECT. (Direct support platton) this is some kind of combat support infantry unit  employment in ABC 111-22 PAD
Cellule de commandement 1xVBL
3x Groupes d'appui direct.1xVAB

3x PELOTON de CHARS. 4xMBT ,1x Truck

hm Leclerc 56t 120mm gun and Leopard 2 62 t 120mm gun , i think some league


 
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Sabre       10/9/2007 1:16:41 PM
To answer your original question,
Yes, a tank company (three platoons of 4 tanks each) should have an organic infantry platoon (4 vehicles, with 30+ dismounts).  Mind you, that many dismounts will require something like a CV90, which has space for eight... but since I am dreaming anyway...
 
Tanks without infantry are dead meat, in most terrain, and although most armies do have a good ratio of infantry to tanks, combat requires a close, continuous realationship.
 
Some will whine that the infantry wouldn't receive good training, under a tank company commander, or that the flexibility of the current "cross-attachment" system is too cool, etc.  I find those arguments disgusting and disgraceful, coming from a military professional.  In the cavalry, we did have infantry in the line troops (the mortars) and the leadership of the troop and squadron went out of their way to ensure that they were trained to a very high standard (and they managed to outperform mortar sections in the local mech battalions, I might add).  The benefits of knowing and working closely with the same people, every single day, are huge, and yet some would throw this very real combat advantage because they think that they may get slightly better training (dumb, dumb, dumb...)
 
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murabit821       10/9/2007 5:03:53 PM
when i was rifleman in Mechanized infantry battalion durring my service i never see MBT , why ?
because Tank battalion of our Brigade was placed in another city. And brigade never train together , just company training. Also mentality in units , My company is my home and other companies are strange.
i think permanent atached infantry to tank units create much more cohesion in unit/company
for example my propose: our brigade tank battalion have 31x MBT (3x 10 tank company) just add one mechanized platoon (3x IFV) to each company as permanent association.

one curiosity , our company infantry commander was tank officer which was previous tank company commander, he was realy sick with his charge to infantry units that he left army after two years.


the best will be APC/IFV on same chassis as MBT , for example like Merkava and Nammer  , with organization based on vehicle (one squad - one vehicle)

i am surprise that french direct support platoon have VAB APC not AMX10P, that  is  enigma for my why french chose lighter VAB than AMX10P with better crossterain ability.

i read that russian adapt different direct support
BMP-T which become fourth vehicle in Tank platoon

i also read about cavalry based company
with HQ and logistic same as Cavalry troop , also mortar  section.
this company have 
2x tank platoons
2x mechanized infantry platoons  replaced recon platoons


 
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YelliChink    murabit821    10/9/2007 6:07:06 PM
Which country were you from? It sounds like usual SNAFU to largely conscripted armies to save money. Western Armies are very professional and get to train a lot.
 
As for embeded infantry, I think it depends on tactical thinking. There are some merits for cavalry units to be integrated from company level, but, generally, tank crew and infantry receive different training, equipment maintainance and schedule management. For mechanized infantry company, it's OK because every squad takes care of their own vehicle.
 
As for combined training, it is a problem to poorer countries. They often have selected units that trained a lot, but most units are staying around all year long and nevet train beyond basic company fighting.
 
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murabit821       10/9/2007 6:57:05 PM
i am from Slovakia , but my service was in year 2000  that time armed forces have 60000 men based on conscript  in 2 tanks, 4 mechanized, 3 artilery brigades with total 8 tank battalion , 10 mechanized infantry , 15 artilery battalions

today armed forces are based on 24000 proffesional soldiers in two brigades with total 5 mechanized infantry, 2 artilery and just one tank battalion (3x company with 17 MBT (4x 4 tanks platoon and one HQ tank)


i just advert on when we take for example current US Army mechanized infantry platoon have 3 squads split to four vehicles , this platton can not be atached squads  to each tank platoon , than i try think about special designed platton with structure and size better adapt to tank units needs , for example just three vehicles in platoon, much more like APC than IFV, APC with  more infantry , which can be attached to each platoon

 
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