top 10 tanks in the world!!!

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Couac_Attack RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/5/2003 11:37:45 AM

Sorry, but i forgot to ask you .. You ranking at the end, is what you think logical, or a news paper rank .. plz say it. Now if its your opinoin, could you give me the principal reason of his first place ?

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MikkoLn RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/6/2003 5:20:06 AM

I might have sometimes promised that I'll never take part in these kind of ratings, but heck, I have such a much free time now that I'd like to make a one. I choosed to compare 6 leading designs of today (M1A2, Leopard2A6, Merkava MkIII, ChallengerII, T90, Leclerc) in four important areas. For the winner of each round I'd give 6pt and the last 1pt to count at the end which could be my objective as possible "best MBT of the world". I.At-performance. Important role of MBT is fighting other armour. This contest takes into account tanks ability to fight others of it's kind - protection, armament, fire control etc. 1.Challenger 2.Leclerc 3.M1A2 / Leopard : 3,5pt each 5.Merkava 6.T90 II.General combat performance. Includes ability to engage infantry, other than "hard" targets, sustain damage from at-weapons and atgm's and other weapons etc. 1.T90 2.Merkava 3.Challenger 4.Leopard / M1 / Leclerc : 2pt each III.Tactical maneuverability. Tanks ability to move itself in different terrain, in different conditions (i.e. soft ground, low temperatures and snow, desert etc.) and general performance on tactical and operational maneuverability. 1.T90 2.M1 / Leclerc / Leopard : 4pt each 5.Challenger 6.Merkava IV.Stratecic maneuverability, ease of use, supply/maintenance needed. In other words, how big a burden it's to move specific tank over long distances. 1.T90 2.Leclerc / Leopard / Challenger : 4pt each 5.M1 / Merkava : 1,5pt each And so, the result and comments. 6th place with 10pts - Merkava. Though performing extremely well against it's intended enemies and having good protection, Merkava is left last because it's poor mobility and maneuverability. 5th 11pts - M1A2. Though performing generally well, M1 is suprassed in every area by some contestor. It's points were left pretty low in result of poor infantry and equivalent fighting capability and great fuel consumption. 4th 13,5pts - Leopard2A6. Performed equally strong in nearly all areas, not being the best but not the worst. The same reason as with M1, the second contest, dropped somewhat it's points. 3rd 15pts - Leclerc. Performed about similarly to Leopard - pretty well balanced throughout. Marginal difference was made up by it's slightly better at-fighting ability. 2nd 16pts - ChallengerII. In pure terms of fighting power, armament and armour, Challenger is throughout strong against all it's opponents. Very effective in countering different kinds of threats, and with good strategic mobility too. Only drawback is, as could be estimated, the slight lack of battlefield mobility. Winner with 19pts - T90. T90 wins three out of four contests, being the most mobile of the designs in differing conditions. It's high level of protection against missiles and good capability against infantry earns it another victory. Only in at-capability it's left last because inferior punishing power when compared with contestors.

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crna_zvezda RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/6/2003 5:38:49 AM

The classification seems realistic to me but there is some thing that I still don't understand. Said that the T90 (please consider the latest s type not the early T90's produced) has an edge on protection (Arena-E considered?) but lacks AT, shouldn't we look at this as a compromise between AT and protection in order to gain on weight and mobility? Let me show an example(maybe a stupid one!) : So according to the classification our little T90s can take out an M1A2 on a single shot(ATGM or with some luck main gun). It can also sustain the M1A2 response without being seriously affected by the hit. All this when being far more cheaper and lighter.That is what I call an important advance. But how does it comes then that the T90 is said to be a outdated design produced from an outdated doctrine? How can this be possible?

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Thomas RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! MikkoLn 11/6/2003 6:58:44 AM

Many point to You for trying to point out the different aspects of armour. Where i beg to differ is the relative weight given to each aspect. Don't take it as a critisism, but support to yuor attempt to move this thread in a positive direction. From what i've gathered on this board, is there is not much to choose from between the say the 4 highest rated - it is a matter of taste, bad taste, perhaps; but taste never the less. As the advantages tend to cancel each other out, they seem to be irrellevant, because it comes down to the tactical management of the tank and the training of the crews. This brings us from the tactical aspect into the quagmire of operational quality, where accurate figures are difficult to obtain: Basically a tank that can neither move or shoot is not a tank, how much time does your tank spend not being a tank? 1. Maintenance: The old Centurion was a nightmare to maintain, which Denmark realised to the full extend when they got the Leo1. Relevant measure: Man-hours pr. running hour? 2. Supplies: A fuel-hog like the Abrams is to penalised heavily in comparison to a miser like the Leo. But again, this depends on the fuel and maintanence economy of your TRUCKs as well. Relevant question: How many men does it take to keep the tanks supplied? Not man-hours, as the problem is capacity not actual labour, as most of the time supply personel does not do to much. Cost: Theere the relevant question is the realistic resell value of the tank. just a couple of thoughts.

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crna_zvezda RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! MikkoLn 11/6/2003 7:14:00 AM

The resell cost isn't the only thing to look at, the acquiring cost also needs to be regarded. Then by turning quetion on that particular aspect, i think that soviet/russian armour is very easy to produce and maintain (and destroy). So on that peculiar question the fuel consumption depends also on the supplies a country/army can use. An example russia can afford a huge armored army 'cos of it's oil reserves( not as huge as some middleeastern countries but good enough)! European countries like(UK, France, Germany) can't afford huge armour armadas so they have to produce high quality armour. The same thing is to be said about USA they rely to much at the middle eastern oil wells, that aren't (and you all know it) free of trouble! Now that is a more important matter; What are the ressources you are about to put on the table in order to obtain the best armor possible (and victory)?

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MikkoLn RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/6/2003 7:19:39 AM

Answer to crna_zvezda... My personal opinion is, that T90 is not outdated at all. But responses towards that attitude have been seen mainly because of two reasons (I think); First, at-performance is seen by far the most important aspect. Can't be critisized in all occasions and with all tactics. Anyway, even here, I think T-series has suffered a bad inflation because of elder Iraqi tanks failure and the whole series is seen much inferior to western tanks. Without a single good reason. Secondly, partly related to the first one, it's not necessarily fully taken into account that T90 is built for woefully different specifications than say M1A2. However, it is being judged among the specifications of a western tank, which it fits argually not so well.

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Couac_Attack RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/6/2003 11:05:08 AM

your idear of ranking by points, isnt so bad, but the problem, is that all the mentioned tanks have specificatec edge in each categori .. SO we would need to be more precise. I will comment your post, then say me when im wrong: " I.At-performance. Important role of MBT is fighting other armour. This contest takes into account tanks ability to fight others of it's kind - protection, armament, fire control etc. 1.Challenger 2.Leclerc 3.M1A2 / Leopard : 3,5pt each 5.Merkava 6.T90 " About AT performances, have you counted the ability to shoot at hight speed on very bad ground, the fire rate...?? For your ranking i will contest the supremacy that you give to the challenger. The rifled gun isnt superior to the smoooth bore, i say it, i repeat it, and i confirm it, all the comment i have seen about the UK choice were that they prefered to use kinetic ammo, that are more performant with the Challenger, but the smoothbore will get the same in a few time ( sorry but dont remember the name ), and the heat work better with the smooth bore. ( dont ask me why , i have readen it coming from experts ). Then about the ability to engage a fast-far target at hight speed on bad ground, the Leclerc has an edge on this point. "II.General combat performance. Includes ability to engage infantry, other than "hard" targets, sustain damage from at-weapons and atgm's and other weapons etc. 1.T90 2.Merkava 3.Challenger 4.Leopard / M1 / Leclerc : 2pt each " You are saying that the T-90 outpass the western tanks ?? .. !!! plz justify it. And the best to engage infantry is the Leclerc.. If you want i will give you exmples about his A-infantry system. " III.Tactical maneuverability. Tanks ability to move itself in different terrain, in different conditions (i.e. soft ground, low temperatures and snow, desert etc.) and general performance on tactical and operational maneuverability. 1.T90 2.M1 / Leclerc / Leopard : 4pt each 5.Challenger 6.Merkava " How do you do this ranking ?? .. plz explain, the fact that you place the LEo 2 the leclerc and the M1A2 to the same rank seems pretty strange, .. And again, placing the T-90 the first would need some comments. " IV.Stratecic maneuverability, ease of use, supply/maintenance needed. In other words, how big a burden it's to move specific tank over long distances. 1.T90 2.Leclerc / Leopard / Challenger : 4pt each 5.M1 / Merkava : 1,5pt each " Can you say me what is the range of the T90 plz, to compare .. Know that the Leclerc, the Challenger 2 and the Leo 2 have a range near to the 550 Km. but about suplying, you are maybe right for the T 90 first place. So plz justify your "specials" Ranking that i dont understand.

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Nasty German Idiot RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! MikkoLn 11/6/2003 12:31:16 PM

"So on that peculiar question the fuel consumption depends also on the supplies a country/army can use. An example russia can afford a huge armored army 'cos of it's oil reserves( not as huge as some middleeastern countries but good enough)! European countries like(UK, France, Germany) can't afford huge armour armadas so they have to produce high quality armour. The same thing is to be said about USA they rely to much at the middle eastern oil wells, that aren't (and you all know it) free of trouble! Now that is a more important matter; What are the ressources you are about to put on the table in order to obtain the best armor possible (and victory) " You say that European countries cant maintain a huge Tankforce. I just want you to note that Russia has only 120 T90 at the moment, and with the current Spending they wont produce many new. Compare that to western Armies. Surely, Russia has a lot of older tanks, but they are not updatet so often and so good like western tanks.

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crna_zvezda Irrelevant Remark! 11/6/2003 5:45:01 PM

The point is that if germany was engaged on a war against russia it could run out of fuel supply in a matter of months. Then the mighty panzers could turn on stupid pillboxes. Russia does posses more than 275 t90s and it's T 95 Program has been suspended once more in order to keep the t 90 on production. Although the business isn't as good as in old days but still keeps running. Russia is actually the second arms vendor in the planet and it's finances are going better. Assumed that the russian production cost is about ten times lower than the western standarts man they got an enormous advantage on you. Russia's got the biggest raw material ressources when compared to NATO. Its strategic allies/clients are on a strong economical growth and will remain so for more than a decade, so i see a new sunshine for the russki arms export. Compared to shorting budgets of the european states and to tense relationship between the old europe and the USA, i doubt that you are going to keep up the economical pace. At least there is one odd thing about capitalism on this case, seeing communist products being more attractive than high-tech free world brands. Lenin must be wanting to be burned in order to avoid this vision! hahhahahaha.

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crna_zvezda RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 11/6/2003 6:29:01 PM

range of t 90's as usual: 650 km paved road/550 unpaved but must also add the external tanks and you can go up to 800. Range on Chally 2 450 km paved 250 cross country. Range on chally 2E 550 km paved maybe 300 CC. Range on Leclerc more than 500 km always on paved i got no info on CC. Range on M1A2 265 miles= 425 km paved Range on leo 500 km. Range on merkava4 500 km paved. Now you can make up your mind. A last thing cost per Unit for a new M1A2 5 million US $. For a T90s (without bribes)1 200 000 $. Price of the T 90 sold to india 1 800 000/ 2million $.

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