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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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mike_golf    RE:Chobham 30yrs old? - modular armor   2/12/2004 12:38:51 PM
Actually, the M1A1B introduced modular armor in 1990. The turret armor on the M1A1B can be "opened up" and modules inside can be replaced. The M1 has had it's armor upgraded six times that I'm aware of, M1IP, M1A1, M1A1B (or heavy), M1A1C, M1A2, M1A2SEP, so I'm not sure why the French are so convinced that their "modular armor" is such a big deal. LeClerc is a medium tank that is not significantly better in any given area of tank design that it's bigger brothers (M1, Chally, Leo). It's not that much faster or mobile, it's gun is no more capable, it's FCS is no better, it's command control system is no better. It's armor protection is inferior, which is the norm for medium tanks. So, while it's a fine medium tank, it is not a heavy tank, and you can't compare it. I don't like medium tanks, I never will. No amount of you trying to convince me of the benefits of being able to cross certain bridges that the M1 can't cross will convince me to give up the extra armor of the M1, especially when your wonderful tank isn't that much faster or more mobile cross country.
 
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damnedhippie    Pardon me!   2/12/2004 12:57:36 PM
I don't want to clutter your board with ignorance, but I stumbled onto this place a couple of days ago and am just fascinated. I am a big WWII fan, esp. of panzers, but am not too up to date in the area of modern armor. Could you guys point me to some reliable technical data about such things. Thanks-Jason
 
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Rubicon    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 1:20:02 PM
Now, I have to disagree. The only T-80s we have seen in action are the stripped down Iraqi versions, complemented by well trained may be by Iraqi, but certainlynot Russian standards, conscript crews. And in the first Gulf War they dug many of the tanks in, which just made them stationary targets. Insofar, in the latest Gulf War, most of Iraqi armor has been destryoyed from the air. I don't feel we can adequately judge the confrontational capabilities of LeClerk vs. T-80 till we see them in action in combat or war games, complemented by well trained crews.
 
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Shirrush    RE:Pardon me!   2/12/2004 1:34:51 PM
May I suggest that you take the "DOD 101" course at link or it's mirror/splinter equivalent at link It's pretty comprehensive and up-to-date, and also well-written by John Pike.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 2:14:12 PM
>>Now, I have to disagree. The only T-80s we have seen in action are the stripped down Iraqi versions, complemented by well trained may be by Iraqi, but certainlynot Russian standards, conscript crews.<< Iraq had nothing more modern than T-72s in the Republican Guard. The only T-80 combat experience I am aware of was Chechnya.
 
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Rubicon    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 3:24:11 PM
In Chechnya, it was mostly urban/forest/mountain fighting, not what one would say an optimal grounds for tank fighting. German blitzkrieg was stopped dead in Caucasus during WWII, and in fact, never got as far as Chechnya. Furthermore, one of the few places Germans reached the Volga river, leading to the rich Caspian oilfields was Stalingrad some 500, if not a 1000 or so miles north up stream. So as it remains T-80 has not evne been tested then on the actual battlefields it has been designed for, and most likely will not be.
 
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Kozzy    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 4:53:15 PM
We can assume that the T-80 is not that much better then the T-72, while the FCS and armor are upgraded it still retains the same basic design.
 
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Rubicon    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 5:56:12 PM
I don't think so... First of all t-80 is the first Soviet tank to be operated by gas turbine. Second fire control system has been improved. This site does not have full statistics, but they correspond with some of the information that I heard. link
 
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Kozzy    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight   2/12/2004 8:55:18 PM
The gas turbine on the T-80 was abandoned and replaced by a diesel engine after it was shown to be unreliable and costly.
 
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Rubicon    RE:Bringing knives to a gun fight, gas turbine   2/12/2004 9:09:08 PM
May be it was abandoned, not sure. Fire control is different, supposedly improved, horizontal ammunition system as opposed to earlier vertical one. Effective main gun range is vastly improved for both night and day fighting. Lets just say T-80 is differs from T-72 in more than just armor.
 
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