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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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jacques    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/1/2003 5:50:17 AM
LeClerc is the best but there are 2 areas I would like to see improvement. 1. I wish is has the ability to carry infantry into battle like the Merkava4 2 I want to get rid of the autoloader and bring back a human loader. If those 2 requirements are met then no tank in this world come close to the Leclerc.
 
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Couac_Attack    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/1/2003 2:36:48 PM
Cerbere are you french ??? .. I know the web sites where you founded all this description . but some of the information are biased .. But i agree that Leclerc is the best.
 
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jacques    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/2/2003 1:55:09 AM
His informations are not biased. The LeClerc was designed after the M1 and the Leopard2.It was designed to to be better than the M1 and the Lep this shouldn't be a surprise.
 
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Couac_Attack    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/2/2003 9:46:52 AM
I agree Jacques, but some precise information on the ctechnical caracteristic are biased , the general meaning of the text is pretty true.
 
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crna_zvezda    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/2/2003 5:08:40 PM
Well i think you people are missing some points here. Points that can change a lot of things. In modern combat, tank on tank fighting is becoming scarce because of the air strafes. To counter your 400 leclercs (an outstanding masterpice by the way) a dozen of A10/su 39 can be sufficent and not to mention the apaches/comanches and other kamov/mil. See, in modern combat the tank has lost it's battle ground superiority to lighter and quicker opposition (the amx 10 RC is a good example of mobility,). Now on a tank to tank combat configuration, the OPFOR tanks are equipped, in order to level their main gun flaws, with AT missiles (the konkurs being a perfect example) that can easily and efficiently defeat the leclerc's armour. Even infantry is a more relevant threat when correctly equipped, than other armoured forces. So the whole topic seems biaised to me, when considering the upgoing complexity of ground combat.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/3/2003 2:05:28 AM
The design of the Leclerc was actually started before that of the Challenger II, the smoothbore gun in the leclerc whilst suprior to the US/german gun is inferior to the rifled gun in the Challenger the Callenger 2e is rated as 46KPH crosscountry an advanggtage to the Lecelrc of 4kph not a major difference since when does a M1 have to stop to reload? I think this is an advert for the Leclerc, when the Changer got its recent upgrade the choice was the canadian targeting system as fitted to the M1 or the french system fitted to the the leclerc, the decision whent to the canadian system despite the problems this involved in making it compatable with the french tactical system fitted, this would not suggest to me that that the french system is superior to the canadian system oe area in which it does not seem superior is protection, it is lighter and carries what is generally regarded as inferior armour. So whilst it is certainly one of the best tanks out there I do not think it has the right to be called the best.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/3/2003 2:08:34 AM
As I understand it the Merkava4 is not designed to carry troops into battle, it just has the facility, if its ammo is exhausted or dumped, to carry troops. This was designed in to enable it to act as a heavy rescue vehicle. but I will stand to be corrected.
 
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Couac_Attack    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/3/2003 11:27:40 AM
" the smoothbore gun in the leclerc whilst suprior to the US/german gun is inferior to the rifled gun in the Challenger " Arrrgg .. plz stop it, its certainly the 10nth time that we talk about what os the best between a rifled and a smoothbore, and we saw that they were comparativ with all their weakness each ... " since when does a M1 have to stop to reload? I think this is an advert for the Leclerc, " I think its about the M1A1, but think that an autoloader permit to reload on every type of ground at every speed, whereas you must consider the main stabilization of the tank and be carefull on your driving with a human loader. So that why you get a clear advantage with the Leclerc on this point. Then the suspension of the Abram dont permit to get a good stabilization on bad ground, whereas the Leclerc's one can easily. " oe area in which it does not seem superior is protection, it is lighter and carries what is generally regarded as inferior armour. " About the weightof the leclerc armour, from what i saw on GIAT web site and other, that comparing to the Chobbam, it was much lighter for a better protection.. Then ou must consider that the Leclerc is smaller, so you get more armor by meters. To say that the amor of the Leclerc armor and the Chobbam 2, i think nobody can say it today, because its to secret to get some revelations. " The design of the Leclerc was actually started before that of the Challenger II, " Nothing matter with the ability of the 2 tanks, because when you see history of the Leclerc, the time to decide what king of tank would be made was very important, then all the research about the ability of the Leclerc in stabilization of the gun, the tank , the speed ..... Took a lot of time whereas the Challenger II never did ALL these research. And the Leclerc was made in the idear to outpass by far all the other tanks avaible. ( the Leo II and the M1A1 at this time, then the M1A2) " the Callenger 2e is rated as 46KPH crosscountry an advanggtage to the Lecelrc of 4kph not a major difference " Acceleration, and stabilization of the tank are very important also, because its the direct factor which decide of who will fire the other with a good percent of killing and not being killed.. " So whilst it is certainly one of the best tanks out there I do not think it has the right to be called the best " To reapeat, with all the information i saw about the avaible tanks today, i think Leclerc is the best.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/4/2003 1:58:28 AM
you say that the giat web site says its armour offers better protection than chobham for less weight? this is pure advertisement, you cannot expect them to say, "oh our amour is inferior and we have less of it" you can only judge from third party reports, and these generally say that the lastest generation chobham is the one to have. smoothbore vs rifled? what??? a rifled gun is always superior to a smoothbore of the same caliber, there is no advantage to the smoothbore except that as more countries use it there is more development on the shells, this plus the fact that developing new rounds for the rifled gun is more expensive are the reason why more the smoothbore is in the accendency. At present the 120mm rifled gun is the best tank gun in the world(source Janes) whilst a lack of ongoing development is likely to lose it this position, for the moment it is the best. ps the reason the french 120mm smoothbore is better than the us/german one is its extra length, however it is still shorter than the rifled tube. look at the actual size of the Leclerc, its diemensions are almost identical to the m1/leo/challenger, a reason for this is that the modular armour is bulky. I have read on another site that the saudies have ben told not to operate the autoloader at more that 30kph on rough terrain as it can lead to failures? can you provide details on the comparative accelaration of modern MBt's? I cannot find this info so I cannot comment As to the stabilised gun, all MBTs have this, it was fitted in some ww2 tanks, the first all plane stabliser was fitted to cheiftains in the 80's from all the sites and reports it looks like the top 6 goes 1, M1a2 2, Leclerc 3, challenger 4, leo 5, T90 6, Merkava
 
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Couac_Attack    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/5/2003 11:35:57 AM
"you say that the giat web site says its armour offers better protection than chobham for less weight" Its not really what i wanted to say .. Considering descrition offered on the GIAT web site, and after looking on other sites, i saw thatthe Leclerc armor was much lighter than the Chobbam 1 armor, for a largely better protectin. On some sites, i founded that it was 2 times stronger, but i think i must be careful by reading such things, and that the Leclerc armor has maybe not a such difference with the Chobbam 1 . Now to compare it with the chobbam2, i can just say that its much lighter, and that one of the resaon of the Leclerc weight, but i think nobody can say wich one is the strongest. And i have never seen specials anylisys saying that the Chobbam 2 was the best, ONE OF THE BEST, of course, but not the one.. I dont consider some generals quote, that for some, like to pass their time to say that what they have is the best. Now im still in the quest of good source that could say me which one is the best. About your other comments, im searching for English links.
 
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