top 10 tanks in the world!!!

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PuckaMan Leo2's Armour 2/25/2004 4:59:28 PM

The only place where the Leo2A5/A6 has SPACED (as distinct from hollow) is the front of the turrent, hence the distinctive pointiness of the later models. On the sides and hull, a higer qaulity and more armour was added, which is NOT hollow, just added thickness of the latest generation steel laminate. The width of the Leo2 has not changed, still 3.70 meters. Jeffrey, is this what you've been trying to say? As mike_golf said, the NATO/Western way of measuring armour is a scale of say, chobham to Rolled Homogenous Steel, and joe_6pack's example is correct. This is a comparison, so check the data and results first. IF the Leo2A5/A6 frontal turret armour is 1

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PuckaMan RE:Leo2's Armour 2/25/2004 5:04:42 PM

Bastard, it posted before I finished...... As I way saying; If the Leo2A5/A6 frontal turret was 1 metre thick, it DOES NOT off 1000mm of protection in itself - it is angled, which adds something like 50% (cant remeber exactly) to the thickness versus rounds. So, the final figures say the EQUIVALENT protection of armour, as opposed to actual thickness. Pucka

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RetiredCdnTanker RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 2/25/2004 5:12:21 PM

Sigh. I can see that Jeffrey never will be convinced, no matter what is said. This will be my last direct response to him regarding Leo2A5/A6. Jeffrey, the very first production Leo2A5 rolled off the assembly line in November 1996. Please, go ahead and check this. While you are at it, check when the very first production 122 came off the assembly line. OK? Also, check when the Swedish trials were conducted. This will sort out the timelines for you. Secondly, a Leo2A5 weighs something in the order of 7 tonnes more than an A4. Maybe a bit more, or less, depending on whose data you look at. The point is, that "hollow" armour does not weigh that much. Not even 1 tonne. So, where is the extra weight? Your supposition that the armour on the A5 would add many more tonnes to the weight of the A5 is based on the presumption that the add on armour is built to the same material that is in the A4 turret. This is incorrect, obviously. The add on armour is not made of the same, main, armour that the turret is made of. But, as I said, you refuse to believe either mike_golf or myself, and keep on trying to refute our knowledge and experience. Too bad. You could have learnt from many people on this site, if you were not quite so stubborn.

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RetiredCdnTanker RE:Leo2's Armour 2/25/2004 5:18:30 PM

You are totally correct. An armour package is normally touted as "equivelent to 1200mm of RHA", or rolled homogenious armour. Likewise, a APFSDS round might be touted as being "capable of defeating 1600mm of RHA" As a matter of fact, APFSDS rounds are routinely tested on slabs of RHA such as the standard NATO "triple plate target" As in, "can defeat the standard NATO triple plate target at ranges in excess of 3000 M".

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gf0012-aus RE:Spaced Armour.... jeffrey 2/25/2004 9:13:33 PM

The armour is assessed and "valued" at capability, not by its thickness or its weight. eg if you add applique then not all of the armour is "armour", some will be mounting bolts and plates etc.. and corresponding mounting components on the hull of the tank. canadian might be able to give you an idea of the weight separation of an ERA panel and the added imposition on a hull.

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gf0012-aus RE:Spaced Armour.... jeffrey - RetiredCdnTanker 2/25/2004 9:22:06 PM

RetiredCdnTanker, oops, I offered your name in vain ; ) I didn't realise you had sin binned Jeffrey for being obstinate. I go away for 24 hrs and come back to find a food fight in progress. ;) As an aside, I had some involvement with an IFV project in Aust. We were evaluating german RHA panels and they were approx 300 thick. The germans were absolutely paranoid about these panels and wouldn't let them go anywhere without a company escort. They (the panels) were a nightmare to deal with as we had to bring out a specialist piece of welding gear and a german team in to customize some panels. They would not let us conduct our own tests, and insisted that we had to accept their data. It all got a big ugly in the end, we missed out on the RHA as they got cranky and went home. Then we stuffed up getting Leo parts from Canada. The whole thing turned into an absolute cluster.

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gf0012-aus RE:Spaced Armour.... jeffrey - RetiredCdnTanker 2/25/2004 9:27:18 PM

aaargghh NOT 300 should read 30mm - finger problem

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Jeffrey RE:Spaced Armour.... jeffrey - RetiredCdnTanker 2/26/2004 2:57:47 AM

The Leopard2A4 armor is about 900MM thick,BUT because it is angled like / this its about 1800MM thick thats what im trying to tell,but because of my bad english i can't explain it correctly :>( I have a ''picutre'' that shows the thickness of armor on the leopard front turret,front hull,top turret etcetcetc

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RetiredCdnTanker RE:Spaced Armour.... jeffrey - RetiredCdnTanker 2/26/2004 3:10:14 AM

Yeah, Canada was fortunate to have seen some of the trials for the German armour that we ended up buying. I thought Australia had bought some add on armour packages for the Leo? Or was I dreaming?

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boris the romanian Spaced Armour, Leo2A6 2/26/2004 3:23:04 AM

I'd definately have to agree with mike_golf, I simply don't understand the bonus of having hollow armour on a modern MBT. It is useless against a long-rod penetrator, and its effects against tandem HEAT warheads would be negligible. It would work pretty well against an older HEAT warhead, but modern western armour would totally defeat such a round anyway. I think it makes much more sense if it were filled with a honeycomb of sorts...... Just a thought, Kontakt-5 provides a tank with a 200-250mm boost in protection vs KE ammunition while weighing only 3-4 tons for the entire vehicle. Why not slap some of that on the Leo or Abrams, it couldn't hurt...:) I know it wouldn't happen because of political reasons, but it's a thought....

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Jeffrey RE:Spaced Armour, Leo2A6 2/26/2004 4:00:20 AM

I have my reasons to be so sure about the ''hallow'' armor,but i can't tell you about that thing,maybe the Dutch goverment is listening right now :P

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Kozzy RE:Spaced Armour, Leo2A6 2/26/2004 6:46:07 AM

The armor of the Leo 2A4 is not 900mm thick, that's the equivelent protection it provides.

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Jeffrey RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 2/26/2004 7:01:14 AM

How can i place a picture here?

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PuckaMan Jeffrey and RetiredCdnTanker 2/26/2004 9:32:42 PM

Jeffrey - to post pictures/articles etc, it's best just to post a link to it, StrategyPage has automatic hypertext. Canuck Tankie: Australia was looking at some Canadian Leo upgrade kits after the Krauts has some embolism about something to do security (gf0012-aust can tell you more), but apparently a negotiater or some bloke who was in charge of procurement totally f*^&ed it up, so we didn't get them. They recently got new NV and Electronics, before the decision to get new MBTs (10 bloody years to late IMO). Our main problems with them are wear and tear - simple attrition, inadeqaute funding and where they're on exercises up the top end of Australia (Tropical and Sub Tropic, desert and generally really inhospitable terrain) and the 1st Armoured Boys, I have heard really thrash the Sh&t out of them, even for Tankies. Basically, great tanks, just worn out. Something like 30% of them are not used - Structural problems, etc. I think they're being cannibalised. BTW - What was Canada's troop levels and how big was your armoured force? Post WW2, our Armoured force at peak, was around 100 tanks in one Regiment, and the rest at Puckapunyal, where the Armour School is (my name derives from there). I think we could use at least 200 all up - 2 Regiments, IMO. Our Centurions were really effective in Vietnam. The LeopardAS1 we currently have just have never had the chance to be deployed, although they were on standby for East Timor if the Indos Arked up. Finally, what are your thoughts on going the Stryker option? IMO, it roles are adeqautely covered by the numerous LAV/ASLAV variant already, along with the M113s. Cheers, Pucka P.S: I've been to Vancouver - utterly beautiful. Calgary is fantastic too - it's where Elisha Cuthbert is from, hehe.

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Jeffrey RE:Jeffrey and RetiredCdnTanker 2/27/2004 3:30:45 AM

... link Take a look at the 5 picture...

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