Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Armor Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 5:09:19 PM
This "we knew about the attack but decided to do nothing because...umm" sounds like a whole lot of ass covering. Ditto "we had a secret agent in...blah...blah". The facts: 24 hours before the attack, Nixon authorized Kissinger to tell Israel that NSA radio traffic analysis from the Brit GCHQ base in Cyprus had seen the whole Egyptian army radio net lighting up as they left barracks and moved into the field (so much for radio silence!). Moshe Dayan said Israeli intelligence showed no need for concern and dismissed the US warning - that's why he got fired. The Egyptians (with KGB)had rolled up all Israeli intel assets in Egypt and there's no reason to believe the Syrians hadn't done the same. Mossad was either blind and deaf or worse, were being fed disinformation.
 
Quote    Reply

Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Horsesoldier   11/20/2003 5:17:51 PM
If you've got the real estate, you Win! Next you'll be saying Vietnam was a "draw" - the US lost because we failed to achieve our mission. lost the real estate and ran out...fast from the roof of the Embassy. War is reality, my friend. However much you dislike the results.
 
Quote    Reply

Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks: WE'VE DECIDED? ABRAMS & CHALLENGER? PLUS...ANYTHING TO RISK YOUR NECK IN?   11/20/2003 5:27:55 PM
Perhaps spot three should be tied "equal" for the "also rans" which have been battle-tested? Anything untested comes after?
 
Quote    Reply

swhitebull    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 6:11:17 PM
From Martin van Creveld, military historian and Author of : ?The Sword and the Olive: A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Forces? Creveld is a military historian, and takes a very critical, WELL- Documented analysis of the IDF: Some excerpts from Chapter 13, ?October Earthquake? The Arab buildup did NOT go unnoticed, ?. But the Miltary intelligence continued to misread the signs; gthe media voluntariy refraining to publish the news [of the arab buildup]?.. More omeeting of the IDF General Staff, with [Moshe ] Dayan present, took place on October 4 and 5. Each time the warning signs were more ominous, including, besides, the state of alert that had been declared in the Arab armies and the vast military buildup revealed by continuing photo reconnaissance, the sudden withdrawal of dependents of Soviet military personnel from Egypt and Syria. Still, the Chief of Intelligence, [General Eliyahu Zeira], opinionated as ever, WITHHELD CRITICAL EVIDENCE [my emphasis] in his possession [footnote 26], and insisted that ?the Egyptians and Syrians are not going to attack up but are afraid of us.? [footnote 27] Misled by his subordinate, Elazar [chief of IDF], did no more than order some additional precautions. ?Leaves were cancelled, and readiness level ?C? was declared, first time since 1967. All arrangements for a prompt mobilization of men and material were now in place. Last, but NOT least, THE AIR FORCE WAS PUT ON FULL ALERT AND TOLD TO PREPARE FOR LAUNCHING A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE IF REQUIRED [emphasis added again]. Yet when the meeting dispersed at 1230 hours on October 5, the participants felt that a total of just under 500 tanks available on both fronts were enough to repel any aggression.[footnote 28]; indeed Elazar wondered whether he had overreacted in proclaiming the state of alert. At 0430 hours on October 6, according to Ms. Meir?s military secretary, Yisrael Lior, he was awakened by a phone call [footnote 29]. The voice on the other side, a SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL, announced that ?this evening, Egypt and Syria will start a war.? At 0800, Golda met with Galili, Allon, Dayan, and Elazar. The last two had already met; failing to agree on the measures to be taken, they left the final decision to Ms. Meir. The two most important issues were the numbers of reserves to mobilize ? WHETHER to mobilize was no longer the issue ? and whether to launch a preemptive strike. POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS caused her to reject the chief of staff?s demand that IAF launch a preemptive strike against Arab airfields and antiaircraft defense. Since then the question of whether such a stirke might have changed the face of the war has often been debated. War is a continuation of policy by other means, however, and given Israel?s financial and military dependence on the United States, both decisions were definitely correct. This corroborates Herzog?s account, and is actually MUCH harsher of the INTEL failures and choices made by the government. If you want the sources footnoted above, I can provide them, but they are in Hebrew. swhitebull
 
Quote    Reply

Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 6:53:13 PM
Good excerpt, thanks! Any idea what footnote 26 says?
 
Quote    Reply

Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 7:02:10 PM
It would be interesting to note how much the Israelis relied on photo-recon rather than sigint (much more secret). During the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia the Soviets moved divisions from hundreds of miles inside Russia up to 10 miles from the western border without any intel warning at all! NATO did a lot of sigint traffic analysis to learn to spot these on the move and differentiate from maskarovka (deceptions).
 
Quote    Reply

swhitebull    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 7:38:51 PM
..Any idea what footnote 26 says ... Creveld just cites the source, without going into details...DAMN!!! I wouldhave liked to be a fly on the wall of that one. Here is the source, if you can dig it up, and it's in English, problasby at a good university library: U. Bar Joseph, "Israel's INtellgience Failure in 1973," Security Studies 4:3 (Spring 1995): pg 584-609 swhitebull
 
Quote    Reply

Worcester    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 7:51:16 PM
Thanks!
 
Quote    Reply

welder    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   11/20/2003 8:06:17 PM
Of the ten tanks only two have been in tank vs tank engagements. The M1 and the Challenger. Obviously actual combat will deem which is superior. Just because a tank has all the bells and whistles doesn't mean its the best. Take the French latest tank the "Leclerc" on paper has all the latest and greatest technological equipment a tanker could ever want. It was told to me by a gentleman who has the largest private tank collection in the country whom seems to have access to information you and I would never hear of . The Leclerc is not combat capable it is one thing to have bugs with any tank like the M1 did. My friend states the French tank has so many technical defiences that it would be better if the French started over again or save money and buy our M1's
 
Quote    Reply

crna_zvezda    RE:top 10 tanks:Aarb incompetence....wrong:Israel intel 73   11/20/2003 8:06:53 PM
maskarovka (deceptions). Maskirovka the same tactics taht permitted teh soviets to flank paulus in stalingrad. Also in 1968 mor ethan 65 000 soviet roops flied with weapons and gear as tourists on civilian planes. The reaction force about 300 tanks was in the USSR embassy compound, xo warsaw pact countreis that helped especially GDR had just to cross the czech border. The point is that the hungarian case has a different back ground. The hungarians were in the soviet SOI so it would have been sucudal to try to enter it at those times. Also the czech military didn't oppose any resistance. the relatively low threat was civilian very low level guerilla taht tried to resist for a month or so and in prague and bohemia.
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy