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Subject: M 5 Sherman tank. What would you have done?
Herald1234    2/24/2007 3:24:09 AM
If you were receiving the first British battlefield reports about the performance of the M3 Lee/Grant, as the technical head of US tank production and you had the 1942 US automotive technology base, what would you have done with the Sherman design? Herald
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/13/2007 6:08:27 PM

The question here isn't winning the war or not, it is saving a several hundred tanker's lives.

 
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JFKY       3/13/2007 8:45:32 PM
"The question here isn't winning the war or not, it is saving a several hundred tanker's lives."
Well if the actual majority of kills are mines and panzerfausts, then the number of tankers WIA or KIA may not fall.  Further, if the number of tanks is decreased then the total casualties suffered by American forces may have been significantly increased, due to lack of armour support.
 
The build up to Overlord occurred in late 1943 and early 1944.  The M-26 would NOT have been available for deployment in large numbers for the invasion of Europe.  So the idea that another tank apart from the M-4 was going to solve the problems, such as they were is a non-starter.
 
So the only real question is, "What variant of the M-4 was going to wage the war in NW Europe 1944?"  And the answer at best seems to be the M-4a3E8, at best.
 
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Herald1234       3/13/2007 10:36:20 PM
ermans in France
"If the US couldn't logistically build it, ship it, and use it, then it wouldn't. BUT IT DID. It just didn't build it in time."

 

The this is a false dichotomy.  It was not that NO M-26's could be manufactured, shipped and used, but rather that far FEWER of them as compared to Shermans could be manufactured, shipped and used.  Because of volume restrictions Liberty ships could carry only about HALF the number of M-26's as M-4's.  Unless one radically increased the number of ships, then the US Army would have had far fewer tanks using the M-26 than the M-4.

 The limiter you claim is based on volume?

M4 Sherman SIZE

Length 5.84 m (19 ft 2 in)
Width 2.62 m (8 ft 7 in)
Height 2.74 m (9 ft)






A Sherman occupied an average volume of a  rectangular cube of about  41.92 cubic  meters and a square footprint of about 15.31 square meters of deck space.

M-26 Pershing SIZE

Length 6.33/8.65 m
Width 3.51 m
Height 2.78 m






Cubic volume on the M-26 was approximately 84.5 meters, while the square footprint on the deck was  30.36 square meters.

Looks bad doesn't it?

Hoe about taking that measurement with the gun overlapping in the rear travel position,  McGee?

M4 in the travel;

no change in footprint;

Length 5.84 m (19 ft 2 in) Width
 
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Herald1234    Mines and Panzerfausts.   3/14/2007 12:30:40 AM
Follow up on mines and Panzerfausts.

The M-4 Sherman armor package;

M4A3: Armor
Assembly
Welding
Hull
Rolled and cast homogeneous steel
Location Thickness Angle from vertical
Upper front 2.0"
5.1cm
56°
Lower front 2.0"
5.1cm
0° to 56°
Sides 1.5"
3.8cm
Rear 1.5"
3.8cm
10° to 22°
Top .75"
1.9cm
83° to 90°
Front floor 1.0"
2.5cm
90°
Rear floor .50"
1.3cm
90°
Turret
Cast homogeneous steel
Location Thickness Angle from vertical
Gun shield 3.5"
8.9cm
Rotor shield 2.0"
5.1cm
Front 3.0"
7.6cm
30°
Sides 2.0"
5.1cm
Rear 2.0"
5.1cm
Top 1.0"
2.5cm
90°

The M-26 armor package;

Assembly
 
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Herald1234    A little video evidence of the difference a Pershing makes.   3/14/2007 3:45:32 AM
 
Notice the FIBUA? Notice the moral of this little video play?
 
Herald 
 
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Herald1234    A little video evidence of the difference a Pershing makes.   3/14/2007 3:48:30 AM
 
 
Doggone screwed up board software!
 
Herald
 
 
 
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Herald1234    A little video evidence of the difference a Pershing makes. One more attempt;   3/14/2007 3:51:18 AM
 
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JFKY    Herald and the numbers   3/14/2007 10:20:46 AM
Herald the shipping limiter, as I understand it was not Volume, it was length and hatch size of Liberty ships.  M-4's fit in the holds better, the vessels having been designed around the size of the M-4...source Weapons of Destruction.
 
You still focus on the TACTICS of the M-26 v. the M-4 v. the Wehrmacht.  First, the US Army's tanks didn't engage German tanks, that much...the ratio was 4:1 HE:AP and some of the AP would have been used on concrete fortifications.  So, IF the shipping limiter was correct, you would not have had as many tanks in the ETO using M-26's as M-4's and that would have significantly affected operations overall.  US Armour engaged German Infantry more than German Panzers.
 
Finally, you focus on the battlefield,  again too much.  D-Day was the 6th month of 1944.  Assuming it took 6 months to produce, ship, and train the US Armour Force on the M-26, in England, the M-26 had to be ready for deployment NLT than December 1943.  I don't believe it was.  Ergo, this debate is academic.  If I'm right the M-26 had to coming off the production floor in industrial quantities by December 1943, to have had an impact in Overlord, the bocage, and the Breakout.  Again, I don't believe this to be true.  So, this debate becomes one akin to, "What if Elanor Roosevelt could fly"?  It's simply not possible.  Further, assuming a year to design, prototype production, the M-26 had to be entering last stage design and engineering NLT December 1942.  Again, I don't believe it was.
 
Bottom-line: the M-26 is a non-starter for the NW European Campaign.  Yes it could have been deployed in Oct. 1944 rather than February 1945, but it would not have been the prime tank, by numbers.  The way the M-26 is THE US Armour Force tank in NW Europe is if it's ready for final approval December 1942 OR the Invasion of Europe is post-poned until 1945. Sorry.
 
So again I simply say, that within the realm of Reasonable possibility, the choices were to speed up the production of the M-4a3e8, make more M-36's and increase the production and distribution of HVAP 76mm ammunition.  The tank that was going to crush the Wehrmacht was the M-4, so the goal must be to produce the best M-4.
 
And until, you can demonstrate that the M-26 COULD have, reasonably, been available in the numbers necessary to support D-Day and the subsequent campaign, championing the M-26 is nice, but it is also unrealistic.  I don't think it would have been ready for a campaign in 1944.  Lastly you mention a new engine for the M-26, Herald that was a problem for the Germans, British, AND the US.  Their tank engines designs did NOT keep pace with the weight of new tanks.  The M-26 had the engine it had, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ENGINE AVAILABLE.  Again it's pointless to posit a different engine, might as well ask for Tank Thermal Sights or 3-Axis Stabilization.
 
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Herald1234       3/14/2007 11:38:01 AM

Herald the shipping limiter, as I understand it was not Volume, it was length and hatch size of Liberty ships.  M-4's fit in the holds better, the vessels having been designed around the size of the M-4...source Weapons of Destruction.
 
I would buy malarkey that if I didn't know that many Sherman tanks weren't shipped as hold cargo. They were shipped as RORO cargo. Ever hear of ships like the SS Seatrain?
 

By the way Pershings were shipped over on Liberty ships.  So what was the problem?

 
You still focus on the TACTICS of the M-26 v. the M-4 v. the Wehrmacht.  First, the US Army's tanks didn't engage German tanks, that much...the ratio was 4:1 HE:AP and some of the AP would have been used on concrete fortifications.  So, IF the shipping limiter was correct, you would not have had as many tanks in the ETO using M-26's as M-4's and that would have significantly affected operations overall.  US Armour engaged German Infantry more than German Panzers.
 
I've addressed this aspect of infantry engagement twice by pointing out that whenever they could German infantry would fight with Panzer support. You can't escape fighting tanks if the enemy insists on using them as part of his combined arms defensive mix!
 
I also already covered this aspect of the infantry fight and demonstrated the logistics arguments that directly relate to battlefielfd results. You haven't said anything but the same old tired assertions without either numeric or factual refutation of the number arguments I presented or of the positive numeric and qualitative logistics outcomes[more and better trained veterans operating more tanks over time] you experience when you have a better tank to plug into your combined arms team..  
 
Finally, you focus on the battlefield,  again too much.  D-Day was the 6th month of 1944.  Assuming it took 6 months to produce, ship, and train the US Armour Force on the M-26, in England, the M-26 had to be ready for deployment NLT than December 1943.  I don't believe it was.  Ergo, this debate is academic.  If I'm right the M-26 had to coming off the production floor in industrial quantities by December 1943, to have had an impact in Overlord, the bocage, and the Breakout.  Again, I don't believe this to be true.  So, this debate becomes one akin to, "What if Elanor Roosevelt could fly"?  It's simply not possible.  Further, assuming a year to design, prototype production, the M-26 had to be entering last stage design and engineering NLT December 1942.  Again, I don't believe it was.
 
The battlefield is where the combat decision in war finally takes place. If what you are doing doesn't work as well as it should, you find yourself wasting badly needed resources in men and material. That too is part of logistics. Conservation of Force is a principle in logistics as well as in maneuver warfare. Given that both sides at fighting contact are equal in combat power, the more efficient user of resources has the force multiplier that allows successful offensive operations. F=MA.   
 
Bottom-line: the M-26 is a non-starter for the NW European Campaign.  Yes it could have been deployed in Oct. 1944 rather than February 1945, but it would not have been the prime tank, by numbers.  The way the M-26 is THE US Armour Force tank in NW Europe is if it's ready for final approval December 1942 OR the Invasion of Europe is post-poned until 1945. Sorry.
 
The design delay was eleven months. That was McNair. November of 1944 becomes December 1943. Clank that forward until May 1944. 200 tanks a month=800 to 1000 Pershings, plus follow ons  to the campaign in France. Figure another 1000 
 
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Jeff_F_F    Cavalry vs. Infantry   3/14/2007 11:49:31 AM
A 4-1 ratio of HE vs AP ammo used doesn't tell us anything about how a tank was used. An infantry tank is going to be operating in direct support of infantry on the front lines of a battle, where the enemy's combat power, and their tanks are concentrated. A cavalry tank could conceivabley encounter *fewer* enemy tanks than an infantry tank, because it is often operating behind enemy lines shooting up enemy soft targets.
 
Note that according to the article posted 3/11/07 (www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3398)
 
"In August 1944, the Ordinane Department recommended that the T26E1 be standardized and placed into production. Opposition from the user arms was still strong, however, and Army Ground Forces disagreed and stated that the vehicle could not be standardized until the Armored Force Board had also tested and approved production modifications. Earlier, in July, Army Ground Forces had tried another delaying move...ignored by the Ordinance Department."
 
So accoridng to this, August is the earliest that it could have been ready to start full production. Which doesn't mean that they would have reached the troops in August, as we shall see. Again quoting from the source above:
 
"...caused the American General Staff to intervene in the T26 affair on December 22, and order immediate shipment of available T26E3s to Europe without further testing.
   The first 20 T26E3s were shipped to Europe in January 1945 and at the beginning of February these were issued for service to the 3rd and 9th Armored Divisions."
 
So even if they had been approved in August it would have been October at least before they got to the front. Not to say it wouldn't have helped, and it would certainly have been especially useful to have them in use during the Ardennes offensive.
 
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