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Subject: M 5 Sherman tank. What would you have done?
Herald1234    2/24/2007 3:24:09 AM
If you were receiving the first British battlefield reports about the performance of the M3 Lee/Grant, as the technical head of US tank production and you had the 1942 US automotive technology base, what would you have done with the Sherman design? Herald
 
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Herald1234       3/11/2007 10:13:46 PM

Wouldn't make a difference.

 

All four of those tanks have reverse gears.

 

The Comet would be a good choice as it had good ground crossing ability. The Pershing could at least slug it out while backing up. Sherman and Cromwell? Not too sure..................

Herald

 
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doggtag    got the Hunnicutt book...   3/11/2007 11:52:18 PM
(excellent reference, by the way)
Some notes on the Sherman:
 
its seemingly high hull height (mainly over the rear decking) was primarily in part to the installation of the R975 radial engine and the ungainly path the propellor shaft coming off the engine took down under the fighting compartment, to reach the transmission up front.
 
There was a later design suggesting a lower hull using multibank diesels, featuring a 90mm gun.
(except for the thicker metallurgy necessary back then to build a 90mm gun, it's line drawing doesn't look externally a whole lot different from that 1980s Brazilian (Bernardini) X1A2 light tank which mounted a Belgian 90mm Mk3 gun.)
 
There was even an attempt at fitting the Pershing's 90mm gun (M3) in an enlarged turret in July 1944 (both tanks had a 69 inch turret ring), which gave it the appearance seen in some later Israeli Super Shermans.
 
The high velocity 76mm gun (T1) initially suggested prior to the 17-pdr was at first 57 calibers long, but weight imbalances necessitated a reduction in length of 15 inches prior to widescale production (the APDS of the 17-pdr gave superior performance over the HVAP of the 76mm).
 
There was even a very formidable-looking assault tank, the T14, developed from Sherman heritage (featuring the same 69 inch turret ring, with armament initially the short 75mm M3, but the 105mm howitzer, 76mm high velocity, and 90mm were possible considerations. First pilot vehicle was delivered in July 1943, at about 47 tons (too many mechanical problems kept it out of production).
 
Definitely a very good book if you got the green for it.
(The Sherman looked especially good when trialling torsion bar suspension.)
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/12/2007 1:23:50 AM
The problem with the analysis is that like most analysis it assumes that the Army was in fact wrong in relying on the Sherman, and that the German tanks were in fact better than the Sherman at fighting an winning the war.
 
I'd day that in fact the Army was not wrong and that the Sherman was better at fighting and winning the war than either the German Panthers and Tigers or the M-26. Could it have been better? Certainly. It could have been fielded with the improved ammunition storage already in place, with the wider tracks already in use, and the switch to a 76mm gun could have been made earlier. If more HVAP ammunition could have been provided that would have helped immensely as well.
 
My concern is this. Lets say you can wave a magic wand and suddenly it is 1942 and the US is producing Pershings instead of Shermans. Does that make the war easier to win or harder? Can you land Perhings as easily as Shermans on beacheads? Are Pershings as mobile in the sand as Shermans. Once you get off of the beaches, can they cross bridges as easily as Shermans? Can they move overland in blitzkreig-style assaults as quickly as Shermans. Can they be produced in enough numbers to provide the mass that more numerous Shermans can? Can they move overland quickly enough to achieve the mass through maneuver that the Shermans can.
 
So-called "Quality" (usually meaning frontal armor + main gun penetration) is the single most over-rated aspect of armored warfare. This can be demonstrated through even the most cursory analysis nearly of any armored battle of WW2. The only exception, ironically is Kursk. In Kursk power was decisive. The more powerful german tanks achieve far greater numbers of destroyied enemy tanks than the less powerful Soviets. And yet they were crushed. This is because the key to armored warfare is not killing the enemy by gun power against armor strength, but destroying their formations through maneuver.
 
This was the strength of the early German tanks. They were more maneuverable, and had better communications and so could coordiate better with each other than their much more powerful French, British, and Soviet opponents. Similarly this was the strength of the Sherman. Compared to the German tanks which were much less reliable, and in the case of the Tiger much slower, and too heavy to cross most bridges. Compared to the Pershing it had better cross country mobility, which is key to success in a blitz.
 
Would it have been useful to have M-26s to suppliment the Shermans? Certainly. The Shermans were faster had better cross country mobility and the M-26s had more power, so if stiff enemy armored resistance was encountered they could have been used as a "breakthrough tank" to knock out the heavy armor, and if an enemy counter attack was launched they could have been used to stop it. Then again, that pretty much sums up the description of a Tank Destroyer.
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/12/2007 2:06:30 AM
The issue I have with the article on the M26 is that the M26 has a reputation for poor performance and being underpowered. This is not addressed. I have even heard that some M26 units in Korea swapped for M4s due to the need for better cross country performance. Haven't been able to source that though.
 
It is suggested that the early German success in the Battle of the Bulge is attributable to the weakness of the M-4. The author has apparently no comprehension of the effect that strategic and tactical suprise has, especially on utterly green troops. When experienced troops of the 10th Armored Division with M-4s and M-10s arrived, they achieved considerable success in slowing the German advance of the elite and well equipped Panzer Lehr division, and the fact that they were unable to stop the advance is attributable as much to the superior numbers the Germans had available during thier attack as to the superior quality of their tanks.
 
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scuttlebut steve    pershings were not TD's   3/12/2007 2:17:04 AM

The problem with the analysis is that like most analysis it assumes that the Army was in fact wrong in relying on the Sherman, and that the German tanks were in fact better than the Sherman at fighting an winning the war.

 

I'd day that in fact the Army was not wrong and that the Sherman was better at fighting and winning the war than either the German Panthers and Tigers or the M-26. Could it have been better? Certainly. It could have been fielded with the improved ammunition storage already in place, with the wider tracks already in use, and the switch to a 76mm gun could have been made earlier. If more HVAP ammunition could have been provided that would have helped immensely as well.

 

My concern is this. Lets say you can wave a magic wand and suddenly it is 1942 and the US is producing Pershings instead of Shermans. Does that make the war easier to win or harder? Can you land Perhings as easily as Shermans on beacheads? Are Pershings as mobile in the sand as Shermans. Once you get off of the beaches, can they cross bridges as easily as Shermans? Can they move overland in blitzkreig-style assaults as quickly as Shermans. Can they be produced in enough numbers to provide the mass that more numerous Shermans can? Can they move overland quickly enough to achieve the mass through maneuver that the Shermans can.

 

So-called "Quality" (usually meaning frontal armor + main gun penetration) is the single most over-rated aspect of armored warfare. This can be demonstrated through even the most cursory analysis nearly of any armored battle of WW2. The only exception, ironically is Kursk. In Kursk power was decisive. The more powerful german tanks achieve far greater numbers of destroyied enemy tanks than the less powerful Soviets. And yet they were crushed. This is because the key to armored warfare is not killing the enemy by gun power against armor strength, but destroying their formations through maneuver.

 

This was the strength of the early German tanks. They were more maneuverable, and had better communications and so could coordiate better with each other than their much more powerful French, British, and Soviet opponents. Similarly this was the strength of the Sherman. Compared to the German tanks which were much less reliable, and in the case of the Tiger much slower, and too heavy to cross most bridges. Compared to the Pershing it had better cross country mobility, which is key to success in a blitz.

 

Would it have been useful to have M-26s to suppliment the Shermans? Certainly. The Shermans were faster had better cross country mobility and the M-26s had more power, so if stiff enemy armored resistance was encountered they could have been used as a "breakthrough tank" to knock out the heavy armor, and if an enemy counter attack was launched they could have been used to stop it. Then again, that pretty much sums up the description of a Tank Destroyer.


If you look at the US tank destroyers used, they werent heavy vehicles with very thick armor and a better gun than the shermans.  In fact the M10 and M18 had the same inferior gun and armor problems as the sherman, the M18 was the fastest armored vehicle in the world at that time, the M36 had a better gun but still had thinner armor than something like an M26.  Also, as all 3 of these vehicles had an open topped turret they were not at all good for close fights with infantry as a well placed grenade or molotov cocktail could kill the gun crew.  US tank destroyers used speed to flank enemy tanks, just like the shermans had to do.  The M26, if it was used to suppliment the shermans, would have been used differently from the tank destroyers and would have added a capability that the US army did not get from either the tanks or tank destroyers that were fielded.
 
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Herald1234    The point of the Pershing is its 9.0cm.L50 gun.   3/12/2007 2:56:12 AM
The cross country performance of the tank was not that bad nor was its ground pressure. It was just slow.

You would have to adjust tactics for that. Since most tank kills in WW II were either antitank gun or infantry ambush kills, there is some truth to the argument that you could get away with using larger numbers of lighter tanks to overwhelm your enemy. The trouble here is that even in the category of AT guns and AT rockets the American soldier was woefully underequipped. It was as often a case of using improvised obstacles and explosives to stop a PZKW V as it was a P-47 dropping a bomb . That  is expensive in infantry. It works but like the engineers who were fighting in front of the 10th Armored setting up obstacles at every botltleneck and chokepoint  you could count their successes by the scattered groups of American dead at each roadblock where a Panther was knocked out.

It would have been easier if the poor schmucks had a decent AT gun, preferably in a TANK,  to give them some standoff. in that blizzard.

The German formula was one dug in Siberian Tiger plus a squad of platoon of infantry holds up a Sherman tank platoon and an infantry company forever as long as the position isn't flanked and the ammunition holds out.

With Pershings that wouldn't happen. The Pershings' 9.0cm.L50s could not only knock out the Tiger, it could direct fire shell the Germans as the infantry closed-even during a blizzard.

Herald

 
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Sabre       3/12/2007 2:07:36 PM

US tank destroyers used speed to flank enemy tanks, just like the shermans had to do.  The M26, if it was used to suppliment the shermans, would have been used differently from the tank destroyers and would have added a capability that the US army did not get from either the tanks or tank destroyers that were fielded.

That theory on how tank destroyers "work" always brings me a grim chuckle... How many people know what it takes, to behave so agressively when faced by a Tiger when you are in an M10, M18, or even an M36. Sure, go ahead and say what you would do, I'd like to see how many people would actually be able to pull it off in combat if they were ACTUALLY THERE.  It takes a really high level of training to maneuver like that, (and I'm not knocking just the US GI's here) and perhaps it's easier to not place all of your faith in that... It's the equivalent of the Imperial Japanese Army, equipping the troops with "truly wretched" weapons and expecting "fighting spirit" to overcome every enemy in every situation.
 
That fact remains that a great many US tankers died horribly, whether they were waiting on air support, or outflanking a Tiger only to find out too late that there were a couple Mark IV's hiding out there, too.

 
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Herald1234    Stop that Siberian Tiger.   3/12/2007 6:50:12 PM



US tank destroyers used speed to flank enemy tanks, just like the shermans had to do.  The M26, if it was used to suppliment the shermans, would have been used differently from the tank destroyers and would have added a capability that the US army did not get from either the tanks or tank destroyers that were fielded.


That theory on how tank destroyers "work" always brings me a grim chuckle... How many people know what it takes, to behave so agressively when faced by a Tiger when you are in an M10, M18, or even an M36. Sure, go ahead and say what you would do, I'd like to see how many people would actually be able to pull it off in combat if they were ACTUALLY THERE.  It takes a really high level of training to maneuver like that, (and I'm not knocking just the US GI's here) and perhaps it's easier to not place all of your faith in that... It's the equivalent of the Imperial Japanese Army, equipping the troops with "truly wretched" weapons and expecting "fighting spirit" to overcome every enemy in every situation.

 

That fact remains that a great many US tankers died horribly, whether they were waiting on air support, or outflanking a Tiger only to find out too late that there were a couple Mark IV's hiding out there, too.



That is what I mean exactly. It wouldn't be  a panacea to have this



Above credited to Luciano Trentadue; Copyright 2006

or this;


but either solution would have been a valuable addition and life saver in the real mechanized combined arms team battles of the time.

The Sherman tank destroyer/assault gun would have been a better use of US resources than the job lot of M-10s, M-18s and M-36s that were produced as actual wasted US armored fighting vehicle production at the time.

The British were right in the end. In a tank or a tank destroyer you have to compromise on speed, range, protection, ammunition capacity, crew comfort, mobility, and gun power. if you are constrained by weight and you have to you compromise; you compromise first on speed, then crew comfort, then ammunition capacity. The last things you compromise are protection, mobility, and GUNPOWER.

Herald


 
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scuttlebut steve    I wasnt defending US tank destroyer design and tactics   3/13/2007 2:12:34 AM



US tank destroyers used speed to flank enemy tanks, just like the shermans had to do.  The M26, if it was used to suppliment the shermans, would have been used differently from the tank destroyers and would have added a capability that the US army did not get from either the tanks or tank destroyers that were fielded.


That theory on how tank destroyers "work" always brings me a grim chuckle... How many people know what it takes, to behave so agressively when faced by a Tiger when you are in an M10, M18, or even an M36. Sure, go ahead and say what you would do, I'd like to see how many people would actually be able to pull it off in combat if they were ACTUALLY THERE.  It takes a really high level of training to maneuver like that, (and I'm not knocking just the US GI's here) and perhaps it's easier to not place all of your faith in that... It's the equivalent of the Imperial Japanese Army, equipping the troops with "truly wretched" weapons and expecting "fighting spirit" to overcome every enemy in every situation.

 

That fact remains that a great many US tankers died horribly, whether they were waiting on air support, or outflanking a Tiger only to find out too late that there were a couple Mark IV's hiding out there, too.



I wasnt saying that that was a particularly good or effective tactic or that US tank destroyers were adequate against heavy german armor, just stating that the US pursued that type of design for their tank destroyers and that the M26 would have given them the ability to fight on much closer to equal terms against german armor without having to use flanking tactics to have any chance of penetrating german armor like the TD's and MBT's in use did.
 
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flamingknives       3/13/2007 5:40:22 AM
Interesting little fact, if you'll indulge me.

The M10 was actually no less armoured than an M4, from a functional point of view, when engaging Axis armour. Weapons that could defeat an M10 could also kill an M4, weapons that the M4 was proof against were likewise unable to take out an M10.

On the negative side, the M10 carried no co-axial machine gun and the HE of the 76mm gun was less substantial than that of the 75mm (higher firing stresses due to a higher velocity, so you need more steel wall and less HE.) So it fared less well against infantry and anti-tank guns, which were far more common German defences than tanks. Coupled with its open top, this was its weakness rather than protection against direct-fire weaponry.
 
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