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Subject: M 5 Sherman tank. What would you have done?
Herald1234    2/24/2007 3:24:09 AM
If you were receiving the first British battlefield reports about the performance of the M3 Lee/Grant, as the technical head of US tank production and you had the 1942 US automotive technology base, what would you have done with the Sherman design? Herald
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/16/2007 1:05:47 PM
You are asking for perfection. You are asking Murphy to just give the US Army a pass because we were the good guys or something. Design teams take wrong turns. It happens. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to do better, and I'm certainly not saying McNair wasn't an idiot. I'm just saying that in the real world it would be unrealistic to expect a design program that has no major problems. In fact the biggest classic error of managing projects of this sort is in fact estimating time schedules based on best case scenarios. This is why so many technology projects come in behind schedule: because the schedule was based on the ideal world, not the real world.
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/16/2007 2:04:12 PM


AGF should have done that by sending 90mm M10 test vehicles to Italy sometime in mid 1943. Then all the debate would have shut up and 90mm gun would have been everywhere after 1944. Also, they should have build two prototypes of T23: one with torqueamatics and the other electric transmission, to scatter developing risk. That's a real blunder to chose only one, and proven, transmission for a completely new design.


The 90mm armed M10 is basically the M36, if my understanding is correct.
 
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Herald1234       3/16/2007 3:04:08 PM

You neglect one small detail about the fast German prototyping...it made for unreliable vehicles.  The bulk of the Pzkw's BROKE down at Kursk.  Please note that the M-26 had far fewer problems in this regard.  Yes, the Germans got vehicles to front, reasonably quickly, but they didn't work real well.

 

Further I might question even your argument about German "speed".  In June 1941 the Germans meet the T-34.  In June 1943 the Panther makes it's appearance.  Two years.  Are you SURE the Germans were speedy?

 

Bottom-Line: the Germans took two years to introduce their response to the T-34.  It was an unreliable vehicle, and remained relatively unreliable for the rest of the war, because they "stormed" their answer.  The US took an equivalent amount of time, 2 years and produced a much more reliable vehicle.

If you read the information provided , the Go order for Panther development didn't come until November of 1941. The German firm of Henschel had an answer by March of 1942.m For much the same rerason that the T-2x series of tanksd became a bureaucracy fest, the Henschel tank languished until reworked. Still it was rejected. The MAN firm produced their own version which  began  testing in  May 1942. Now that was 7 months. 2v months later first factory production commenced.

What you fail to understand, JFKY, is that the German automotive production base technology was NOTHING like what the Detrtoit Arsenal, or Grand Blanc was in the United States. The US simply built the assembly sheds, and shipped in the tool and die machinery she needed. In those days it was the United States that built the majority of the world's tool and die machinery and was the fount of most of the metal casting technology found anywhere. It seems awkward to note this but MAN, Henschel, and the Russian Tank Works in Tank City all used the same basic sets of AMERICAN milling machine tools purchased during late 1930s by the respective companies and governments.

Since the US had primary source manufacturing capability, it should have been no surprise that American factory production managers could order on demand entire assembly lines of milling machinery specific to the Pershing while the Russians and the Germans had to adapt their production machinery to build the new tanks they developed.   

When the Russians ran into production trouble, the Americans shipped in automotive experts. When the Germans ran into trouble, they had to work from a much smaller technology base  and it took them longer to sort the production model out in the field.  Plus the Germans were afflicted with clockmaker disease.

Example; the  8.8cm.L.71 cannon used in the Siberian Tiger had a hinge breechblock assembly; that involved over 128 separate components. The US 9.0cm.L50 M-3 gun used on the M-26, had a drop breechblock assembly that used exactly 28 pieces. The US gun was about 10% less powerful than its German counterpart and could still hole a Panther at 1800+ meters right through the mantlet and clobber a Siberian Tiger from most aspects at 1000+ meters. Plus it didn't break down when it left the factory after about a year ofm design of the type. Admittedly the T-23E3 was the start point but the detail design was still 1 year from zero. If the US Army had gone for torsion bar suspension, the 9.0cmL50 gun and the torqueamatic transmission from the start you still wind up production runs in full swing no, later than May 1944 at the latest-and that would be LATE.

The Gernmans were frankly astonished that they didn't face Pershings in Italy. They expected something like the Pershing to be rolling out of US factories in bulk by May 1943.  

Herald
 
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YelliChink       3/16/2007 3:33:47 PM

The 90mm armed M10 is basically the M36, if my understanding is correct.

That's right. However, M36 didn't appear in any numbers before the death of Gen. McNair, more than one year after the  test vehicle of the M10 with 90mm M3 were built, tested and forgotten. Ironically, British mounted their 17 pounders on their M10s can called them Achilles with some success.
Some M36Bs are basically obsolete M4A1 with M36's turrent, and they were converted IN FRANCE.
 
In the mean time, US towed AT gunners are still using 57mm Anti-Tank Gun M1.

 
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Jeff_F_F       3/16/2007 5:15:45 PM
YelliChink, Good call.
 
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flamingknives       3/16/2007 5:44:19 PM
AIUI, the US also used the 76mm antitank gun, M5 on an M6 carriage

The 57mm (essentially the same as the British 6pdr, but with a slightly longer barrel) is a pretty effective anti-tank gun for its size, especially if it is issued with APDS ammunition, although I don't think that this was issued in any quantities for the US army.
 
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Herald1234    The US 5.7cm.L60 was issued APHE and APCBC ammunition.   3/16/2007 6:18:35 PM

AIUI, the US also used the 76mm antitank gun, M5 on an M6 carriage

The 57mm (essentially the same as the British 6pdr, but with a slightly longer barrel) is a pretty effective anti-tank gun for its size, especially if it is issued with APDS ammunition, although I don't think that this was issued in any quantities for the US army.
As for its effectiveness?

The following report, an all points bulletin, from the 776th Tank Destroyer Battalion, concludes the 57mm gun is:"...an effective weapon against any German Armor"

"HEADQUARTERS  776TH  TANK DESTROYER BATTALION APO #758
11 December 1944
EFFECTIVENESS OF FIRE OF 57 MM ANTI-TANK GUN ON MK V TANK


57mm anti-tank gun model m-1 71st regimentOn 8 December 1944 a demonstration was conducted by the 776th TD Bn in the vicinity of SCHALBACH, 572-268 with a 57mm AT gun belonging to the 71st Inf. Regt. of 44th Inf. Div. The purpose of this test was to determine the effectiveness of the 57mm AT gun against a Mk V Panther tank. An effort was made to secure AT gun positions so the tank could be fired at from all angles. The terrain was too wet to get the gun into all the desired firing positions, but three positions at different ranges and firing angles were occupied.

The crew was comprised of members of the AT crews of the 71st Regt, with two members of each gun crew being present. The Panther tanks previously knocked out by the 776th TD Bn, were used. One tank did spot burn when it was knocked out, while the second tank had a turret fire and it was in this tank’s turret that a 3” hole was made with the 57mm AT gun.

The AT crews were impressed with the favorable results of the firing and showed a marked increase in their confidence of the 57mm AT gun at the conclusion of the test.

The 57mm AT gun was put into position behind the tank at a range of 300 yds at a 15 degree angle from the tank’s flank. From this position 7 rounds of APC (AT) were fired. Three rounds were fired into the turret, all of which made a clean hole and started small fires. Two rounds were fired at the hull just above the track, which made clean holes, but started no fire. Two rounds were fired into the track, which took out one bogey wheel and broke the track.

Panther mk mark v panzer tank france 57mm anti-tank testThe gun was moved to a new position of 500 yds. At a 10 degree angle off the rear of the tank. Three rounds were fired into the turret, two on the sides and one in the rear, which made clean holes and started small fires. Two rounds were fired into the rear of the track, which was broken with these two rounds. Two rounds were fired into the rear of the tank, which started more fires. This tank was completely burned by the fire from these two positions.

The gun was moved to a new position of 300 yds range at an 8 degree angle off the front of the tank. Three rounds were fired into the front of the tank. These rounds made slight penetrations then ricocheted off the frontal armor. Two rounds were fired into the turret?one made a clean hole, the other mad a hole about three inches in diameter. No fires were started. Two rounds were fired low on the track, these went through the bogie wheels on one side and came through tore up the bogie wheel and track on the other side of the tank. Two rounds were fired into the front driving sprocket and the track was broken. All but one round fired from this position, which was a bad frontal angle, made clean holes, with the exception of the three fired on the frontal armor, which made only slight penetration.

CONCLUSION: From these three positions, one which presented a bad frontal angle it is evident that the Panther Mk V is vulnerable to the 57mm AT gun. There was no difference in the size of the holes made by the APC at the greater range. All but one of the turret hits were clean-cut holes and not gouged out from the impact of the APC.  All but two hits in the turret set off some of the ammunition and started small fires. The hull, the part of the tank between the track and the turret, is vulnerable, and the

 
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Jeff_F_F       3/17/2007 12:09:26 AM



Effective? From flank and rear under static conditions from well under 300 meters it was effective against a Panther. Can you say dead gun crew?

Herald

You ever read accounts by tank crew facing ATGs? If they are camoflaged at all they are not all that easy to see, especially from inside a tank. Hence the imperative not to give away one's position by firing early. As to flanking positions, that is a matter of choosing the ground you fight on, and chosing positions with interlocking fields of fire.
The US Army was not and is not organized for static defense. ATGs were intended to reinforce defensive positions not as the primary way to fight the enemy. In many ways they are superior to heavier guns, because they can be moved quickly and easily by a variety of light vehicles, and because they are smaller they are easy to conceal, can take advantage of more opportunities for defilade and can be dug in quickly. 
 
One of the criticisms that the Germans expressed for their 88mm guns was that the prime movers needed to move them were so large that their movements were easily observed by the enemy. A 57mm gun could be moved by its crew if needed for short distances or by a jeep. I've seen pictures of the emplacements needed to dig in an 88 AT gun, (not an AA gun) It was huge. There is no way that it could have been constructed in a reasonable period of time by the gun crew. Look at the picture above. How long would it take to dig that in?
 
Not to say it is perfect, but my understanding is that it was about as good at penetrating armor as a 76mm gun, because of its higher muzzle velocity.

 
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Jeff_F_F       3/17/2007 12:26:28 AM
Consider that both the defender and attacker are part of combined arms teams. The defensive combined arms team will include supporting infantry, mortars, machineguns, probably artillery and tanks as well. These supporting arms will help the ATGs by making it hard for infantry to attack them. Meanwhile the ATGs help to defend the infantry and artillery from tanks. If the infantry are in good positions it will not be easy for the tanks to find them, so the infantry will either have to find them first, or the tanks will have to get close.
 
Similarly the enemy will not just be tanks and infantry they will have their own artillery and mortars in support. If the antitank guns are part of an advancing force they will not have much time to dig in. If they don't have time to dig in, they are very vulnerable to artillery. They will probably have hasty fighting positions or even foxholes for their own protection but they won't be able to man the gun while sheltering there. However if they can dig in more they may be sufficiently protected to man the gun even in the face of artillery fire.
 
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doggtag    what needs to be remembered concerning the 57mm/6-pdr is...   3/17/2007 1:06:29 AM
...that the last year in the War (ETO), the number of German heavily-armored AFVs was decreasing, not increasing (thanks in part to Allied bombing just as much as battlefield attrition and mechanical failures, if not moreso).
And the scores of other German AFVs: armored cars, half tracks, and a number of hashed-together bits and pieces of captured enemy armor (Czech tanks, French tanks, Russian chassis, etc), were all well within the capability of the 57mm/6-pdr gun to defeat. The 60mm armor of the "little" Hetzer TD, and a number of StuGs and other self propelled guns and lash-ups, were easily dispatched by the 57, even without its APDS (6 pound AP, 821m/sec,74mm @ 30° @1000m; 7 pound APCBC, 846m/sec, 88mm @ 30° @ 1000m; 4 pound APCR, 1075m/sec, 90mm @ 30° @1000m;  3.2 pound APDS, 1234m/sec, 146mm @ 30° @ 1000m).
 
But I'm not suggesting that a 57mm-armed tank or TD was needed late war (except for the M3 halftrack as the T48 built in minimal numbers, and the 2&1/2 dozen Boarhound 8-wheeled armored cars built, the US never adopted mobile 57mm guns to the extent of the British and other Commonwealth forces did).
On the contrary: the fact that the AP:HE ratio of the Shermans and Pershings was 1:4 or whatever, could be an indication that those bigger-gunned AFVs had to spend a considerable bit of their firepower taking out the softer vehicles that didn't need heavy-cored AP to take them out.
Even Chaffees with their short 75's, reminiscent of early-model Shermans, took their share of the thinner-skinned German vehicles, and at a time when they could've gotten by with the superior AP performance of the higher-velocity 57mm gun, but HE throw-weight was deemed more important (even for a supposed light tank/scout), hence the choice of the 75mm M6.
When Chaffees first appeared in battle in April 1944, their 75mm was even more woefully lacking in the AP department than that of the Sherman.
yet at nearly the same weight, the M18 Hellcat had a much better AP-performing 76mm gun, as well as its phenomenal high speed, although both the Chaffee and Hellcat couldn't even shrug off every 37mm hit.
 
Perhaps the solution the US should've followed was,
roll the M18 and M24 into one vehicle: high speed, minimal armor, decent-performing 76mm gun (used for scouting, flanking, and ambush),
and concentrate all the M10 and M36 production into M26s.
There were more than enough Shermans being manufactured across the US to accomodate for battlefield losses as the Pershing lines were tooled up.
How many Shermans arriving late in the war never even left England's shores to even set foot on the European continent?
Several hundred IIRC, which made little, if any, contibution to the War (Korea maybe, as they would've been generally low-mileage). How many never even left the US? Another several hundred, even a thousand?
That number alone could've amounted to an entire plant being retooled early on for M26s once they were ready for production. Even if that meant only an additional couple hundred Pershings got into theater before War's end, those numbers could've made a considerable difference in the right areas (not that the final outcome would've really changed anyway).
 
And that saga would've eventually stretched into the Korean War, where a larger number of 90mm-armed Pershings (instead of an over-abundance of high-silhouette Shermans) might've given T-34s a serious run for their money, and could've helped alleviate the deficiencies that were encountered with the 2.36" Bazooka facing off against T-34s.
 
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