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Subject: A Bradley mortar system?
doggtag    12/20/2006 1:36:31 PM
Wasn't sure to qualify this as artillery or armor, but recently I found an article about the US Army's new M95 Mortar Fire Control System, being trialled recently at Rodriguez in S Korea.

(see next post for working links)

Whether one gets the article from Military.Com or Defense-Aerospace.Com, it all seems like the same article.

But anyhow..
A Bradley mortar variant?
 
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Herald1234    An ignorant question..   12/30/2006 9:52:22 PM
So a low pressure gun/mortar able to fire direct/indirect out to say 0-3000 meters would be about the mission requirement for a mixed list of targets as FSV just presented or would you prefer a little more "reach"?

Herald
 
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FSV       12/31/2006 2:38:37 AM



Believe it or not, in the real world vehicle combat ranges start at 5 meters (sometimes even closer), especially when providing Direct Support for the infantry.

Can the fuze work at that range?



They could, but normally fuses are designed to "arm" at a distance where the firer would have a low risk of harm from a functioning (exploding) projectile.  For an 81mm HE round the arming distance would be in the 25 to 35 meters range.  For targets inside the arming distance you would use unfuses ammo ...... Canister or APFSDS for example.  As well as the coax machine gun.  Tank crewmen are known for dropping hand grenades alongside their vehicles.
R/S  Jake
 
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FSV       12/31/2006 6:42:24 AM

So a low pressure gun/mortar able to fire direct/indirect out to say 0-3000 meters would be about the mission requirement for a mixed list of targets as FSV just presented or would you prefer a little more "reach"?

Herald

Herald1234:

Actually the 5,900 meter range of the M252; 81mm mortar is a good working maximum engagement range. In the past approximately 98% of the engagements took place at ranges of 3,000 meters or less. With modern Fire Control Systems & Communication Nets available, the number of Extended Range engagements will probably increase.

To get an idea of engagement range needs/requirements, lets look at the problem from the point of view of the infantry we are supporting. Keep in mind this is "in the field", not on a Firing Range, & under the ‘stresses of combat’ which can reduce the ability of an individual to fire accurately. Also keep in mind "sight line" distances/times, for example in different terrain how far away can you see someone & how long will they be exposed before they can reach cover or concealment? Get in your car, drive around, stopping to take ‘looks’ around. Remember, 1/10 of a mile = 160.9 meters.

0-200 meters is Death Ground. Effective fire from Assault Rifles can be brought to bear on moving or partially exposed troops, with a good ‘hit’ probability. The same is true for Rifle Grenades, shoulder fired rockets/recoilless rifles (LAWs & RPGs). Belt feed Machine Guns & Automatic Grenade Launchers are vicious killers in this range band. The same is true for mount fired recoilless rifles.

200-500 meters is Danger Ground. The ‘hit’ probability for most shoulder fired weapon against moving or partially exposed troops drops dramatically, but is nothing that you’d want to casually stroll through. The exception is fire (very dangerous) from trained snipers, with ‘scoped’ rifles. The maximum range for Rifle Grenades falls in this range band. Fire from bipod mounted MG’s is very dangerous. Tripod mounted MG’s, AGL’s & RR’s are still vicious killers.

500-1,200 meters is Risky Ground. The ‘hit’ probability for most shoulder fired weapons is very low, even against fully exposed troops. Fire from trained snipers is still dangerous. Fire from tripod mounted MG’s, AGL’s & RR’s is still very effective/dangerous.

1,200-2,000 meters is Problematic Ground. MG fire is more Suppressive/Harassing fire than Killing fire. RR fire is reasonably accurate. Medium ranged ATGM’s may be used in the anti-personnel role (depends on availability & how ‘pressed’ the enemy feels).

You want to be able to kill Light Armored vehicles out to 3,000 meters.

R/S Jake



 
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doggtag    Keep it comin', guys!   12/31/2006 5:13:26 PM
Yeah, now this is the stuff!
 
Thanks for the range breakdown (engagement zones), Jake.
Something we need to consider when designing our weapon.
 
As to what ranges mortars can achieve when firing as a mortar (high angle), I dug these up:
-----
link
C-06A1
The C06A1 Extended Range Mortar achieves a range of 6000 m, operated by 2 crewmen. The C06A1 Mortar is an outstanding extended range weapon for the Infantry Platoon and Company, with integrated sighting system, enabling accurate alignment and elevation. The Mortar has a fixed pin, causing firing immediatly upon loading. Weight: 27 kg. 
 
-----
link
(about 1/3 down the page, Overlaps)

 

By Terry J Gander

 


Overlaps

Before leaving the calibre category topic, mention must be made of a trend that could remove the medium mortar from the state of numerical pre-eminence it currently assumes. It has already been mentioned that long-barrelled 60 mm mortars, such as the French TDA 60 mm long-range mortar, can deliver maximum ranges that overlap those of the heavier 81.4/82 mm mortars. When it is considered that the on-target performance of 60 mm high explosive bombs can be only slightly less than those for 81.4/82 mm bombs, especially in fragmentation terms, the differences between the two decrease. If 60 mm bombs are fitted with proximity fuzes their air bursts can effectively cover target areas comparable to those of larger calibre bombs. With such features now available the attractions of the medium mortar over those of the long-barrelled light start to diminish. They diminish even further when the weight and portability advantages of the lighter long-barrelled mortars are considered.

Some armies have already started to favour long-barrelled light mortars over conventional medium mortars, one being the South African National Defence Forces where 81 mm mortars are gradually being withdrawn in favour of 60 mm. However, it must be remembered that one of the most successful mortars of past decades has been the British 81.4 mm L16 series, still in production and in service with numerous armed forces, including the US Army. A mid-life improvement programme, including the introduction of longer-range ammunition, is scheduled for the L16 series and it remains available from BAE Systems, RO Defence.

The long-reaching South African Vektor M6 long-range mortar has a maximum range of 6,000 m firing streamlined bombs.
The French TDA long-barrelled LLR 81 mm mortar can reach to 7,800 metres.
-----
Denel's Vektor M6 60mm long range mortar, in pdf format (see pp 9-12)
link
 
and Denel's Vektor M8 81mm long range mortar, also in pdf (see pp 5-8)
link
-----
 
Keep in mind also,
that MCB81 we've been talking about, it already has a claimed range of 8000m (seen 8800m elsewhere).
But with these long range bombs being developed for standard muzzle loading mortars, the slightly higher pressures the longer barreled breech loading MCB81 type can generate may get these bombs another 1000m range or so.
 
Also remember the DARPA/BAe ODAM program, which, if successful, will revolutionize the capabilities of mortars.
link
BAE Systems To Develop 60mm Mortar Guidance Systems

DARPA's Optically Directed Attack Munition (ODAM) program is a technology development and integration initiative to demonstrate a laser-guided, low cost optical seeker for the 60mm mortar.
Nashua NH (SPX) Feb 15, 2005
BAE Systems has been selected by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Technology Office to convert a 60 millimeter mortar into a precision guided munitions system.

DARPA's Optically Directed Attack Munition (ODAM) program is a technology development and integration initiative to demonstrate a laser-guided, low cost optical seeker for the 60mm mortar. The total value, if all phases of the development program are completed, will be approximately $9 million.

The systems will improve U.S. military effectiveness by providing small, operational units with cost-effective precision indirect munitions systems capable of operating across multiple environments.

Dr. Doug Kirkpatrick, DARPA program manager, said that ODAM represents "a break-through in affordable, precision-guided munitions."

"ODAM will provide a new capability for the war fighter based on low-cost, precision optical guidance of a munition that has never been able to operate with precision in the past," said Aaron Penkacik, vice president of Advanced Systems and Technology for BAE Systems.

The ODAM program will occur over 24 months and culminates in a live-fire demonstration and delivery of 1,000 live rounds for government test and evaluation.

-----
 
Remember: ODAM is going for 60mm.
And should it prove successful (obviously the technology will mature at some point in the future, maybe just longer than 2 years), there's no reason it cannot be adopted into 81mm, 120mm systems, or even howitzers (75-105mm),
thus justifying a gun mortar based FSV, as we can gain precision once only available to the bigger 120mm mortars and 127mm & 155mm guns with their PGMs.
 
What I see in those newer streamlined long range bombs for mortars: does the longer shape give us a greater internal volume for explosive filler?
Surely it's not all (the new elongated shape) metal with minimal filler.
 
Also, as we see in the prefragmented 40mm Bofors round used with the 3P fuze, we could get phenomenal fragmentation effect from a 60mm or 81mm mortar shell incorporating said prefrag pattern.
link
(see page 21 for a cutaway of the 40mm prefrag shell, with the bigger 57mm at the top of the chart on pg 22.)
-----
 
Here is some symposium info on course correction tech being trialled for mortar systems (from 3+ years ago)
link
(see page 6 & down for the conceptual seeker)
As technologies improve, our seeker can be made smaller and more shock resistant, thus allowing it to incorporate into 81mm systems (and 60mm as ODAM hopes), plus achieve greater ranges with higher pressures from longer tubes. (Although I see no reason to develop gun mortars with 20km ranges! There, you might as well stick with howitzers.)
-----
That tech will give us the precision edge needed for indirect, beyond line of sight engagements (or attacking over obstacles and terrain).
But for diect fire, I see use for a general purpose support round offering a prefrag pattern to allow use against personnel and most unarmored vehicles,
an HEDP round for reinforced targets (light & medium AFVs,  but fortifications primarily),
and a HESH/HEP type round for attacking walls and other obstacles (this would be our demolition round).
 
Preferrably, I'd like to see our seeker be able to be inserted into any of our rounds, and not purpose-built into just one type of warhead.
Our vehicle could incorporate a ready magazine of prefuzed (programmable smart fuze) rounds for most direct fire work,
with a secondary magazine with shells lacking a fuze that our seeker can be installed into, primarily for any indirect work.
 
This of course would dictate manual loading. But with 60-81mm mortar rounds, that's not going to be difficult for whoever must act as the loader (a 2-man turret almost guarantees the commander must perform this role, even though modern hunter killer optronic systems could allow both the commander and gunner to act either/or as gunner and loader).
With its 25mm ammo boxes and TOW racks removed, a Bradley hull could easily incorporate a 2-man turret, with two men in the hull rear servicing/selecting the ammo racks on either side and doing fuzes, then handing them into a turret ready magazine within easy reach of the loader.
A redesigned turret could allow a bustle at the back with ready rounds (direct fire) within easy reach of the turret crew.
This could be replenished from the hull during lulls in the fighting.
 (current Bradleys have a "combat downtime" when they must reload their TOWs and 25mm ammo in the turret from stocks in the hull. A good crew can reload both TOW tubes in under a minute, even with 70pound encased missiles. But reloading the turret's 25mm ready magazines takes a bit longer.)
-----
 
Something I dug up elsewhere:
regarding a gun mortar's direct fire velocity as compared to machine gun grenade launchers,
a huge-honkin' book I have at home (The Complete Book of US Fighting Power, ISBN 0 517 03298 8, c 1990, pg 185) lists the US Mk19 as firing the M383 round at 790fps, and the M430 round at 1200fps, same ballpark as the earlier-suggested 300m/sec (984fps) for a gun mortar in direct fire mode. I would expect that any of those long range bombs, with a full clip of charges, fires at a considerably higher muzzle velocity, thus allowing greater direct fire range engagements
(for comparison, many 39-cal 155mm systems fire some ammo in the 800-850m/sec velocity range, while many of the newest 52-cal barrels can fire some extended range streamlined ammo at just over 1000m/sec at full charge).
 
 
 
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Herald1234    Just a few quick questions on your PGM 60 mm. mortar round?   12/31/2006 5:44:59 PM
1. Is the round using aerodynamic surface or reaction jet steering for its final vector correction on its impact point in its descent phase?
2. I assume you expect the laser seeker steering unit to be a screw in nose piece like the conventional fuses are on many normal mortar/artillery rounds.
3. If Copperhead went toes up on the cost issue with a 155 mm laser seeker, what makes us so certain that we can do it for a much smaller mortar round and be cost effective? Is it the difference between 10,000 gees of shock, and 25,000 gee's plus on the seeker when it is fired?

Herald
 


 
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FSV       1/1/2007 12:15:01 AM

1. Is the round using aerodynamic surface or reaction jet steering for its final vector correction on its impact point in its descent phase? 
2. I assume you expect the laser seeker steering unit to be a screw in nose piece like the conventional fuses are on many normal mortar/artillery rounds.
3. If Copperhead went toes up on the cost issue with a 155 mm laser seeker, what makes us so certain that we can do it for a much smaller mortar round and be cost effective? Is it the difference between 10,000 gees of shock, and 25,000 gee's plus on the seeker when it is fired?

Herald
 

1.  Reaction jets, located in the fuse/seaker assembly, for course corrections.
2.  Yes.
3.  The lower Gee loading of the mortar round does help reduce the cost.  But modern electronic components & manufacturing procedures also help.
 
R/S  Jake
 
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