First Large Armored Battle

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bunkerdestroyer RE:First Large Armored Battle 11/9/2005 8:21:03 PM

perhaps the spanish civil war with early soviet t-tanks vs Italian l-3s? what about in 1939 in manchuria? early japense tanks vs the soviet t tanks-not including the t-34/kv-1 in their early border clashes?

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Yimmy RE:First Large Armored Battle 11/9/2005 8:26:11 PM

I think the first use of large tank v tank battles will have been by the Germans. Until the Germans used their tanks in blitskrieg, I don't think other nations used them in independent companies as such, but attached to support infantry. I realise nations did have tanks designed to fight tanks, such as the British cruisers, but I think Germany will have participated in the first such battle.

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Carl S RE:First Large Armored Battle 11/9/2005 11:38:24 PM

The Soviet Army may have formed large tank formations before the Germans did. In any case the British had their experimental armored divsion in the 1920s. The Japanese did have a few battalions of tanks in the fighting in 1938 and 1939. But these were scattered out as infantry support according to the few accounts I've read. The same for the Spanish war. I'm curious here as to how correct my memory is. Were there any battles were several battalions of tanks fought each other in concentrated mass before 1940?

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S-2 RE:First Large Armored Battle/Khalkin Gol-CGSC Study 11/10/2005 4:27:15 AM

Here's a link to an interesting paper at CGSC, Ft. Leavenworth. link An interesting analysis of Khalkin Gol, with plenty of Soviet armor-but none for the Japanese. Rather one-sided. Even there, "plenty" was two Soviet armored brigades w/about 500 tanks, four-fifths of which were light tanks, according to John Erickson. I think that you're right, Carl S., that the first major tank-tank engagements were fought in France. I'm not certain about the Poles though. I really can't recall any engagements of note in Poland, though I could be wrong.

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bunkerdestroyer RE:First Large Armored Battle/Khalkin Gol-CGSC Study 11/10/2005 10:32:31 AM

I did not include actions in poland as they had only 53 Renault R-35 with a short 37mm....the rest....50 vickers 6 tn, 67 Renault Ft and 693 TK and TKS tankettes..mg or 20mm, all under 10 tns, and hardly resembles a tank(though the pz 2 was 10 tns and had a 20mm).......if you include 167 7p tanks-it depends on the model....-6 tn 2-turrent mg armed, or the light tank 37mm armed version, still, they had 222 at the most........

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Yimmy RE:First Large Armored Battle/Khalkin Gol-CGSC Study 11/10/2005 11:15:30 AM

What about Czechoslovakia? (Or however you spell it...), they had quite a tank building industry going.

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S-2 RE:First Large Armored Battle/Czechoslovakia? 11/10/2005 12:10:13 PM

You mean when the Sudetenland, and later the rest was occupied? It was all without a shot. I believe that it was an English P.M. who declared "peace in our time" to eloquently describe the moment, IIRC. (:-)

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Carl S RE:Khalkin Gol 11/10/2005 10:05:17 PM

I've got the Levenworth pub, thanks. Khalkin Gol sounds rather one sided. Not a tank on tank battle. were there any tank vs tanks engagements however small in the Spanish war? Or in China? As an aside the French deployed several battalions of tanks in the Rif war in Morroco in the 1920s. I presume not in a single massed group. But it appears to be the earliest post WWI use of a significant number of tanks. So if we are not missing something then the Hannuat or Merdorp battle 12-13 May would be the first large sacale tank battle anywhere then?

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Eagle601 RE:First Large Armored Battle/Czechoslovakia? 11/11/2005 12:46:03 PM

The Czechs and Romanians were taken rather quickly and the Germans adpated many of their tank designs for their own use. I think the Romanian 38(t) stayed in production for the Wehrmacht until the Soviets "liberated" Romania in '44 I believe.

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shawn RE:First Large Armored Battle/Czechoslovakia? 11/11/2005 1:17:12 PM

The Panzer 38(t) was actually a Czechoslovakian LT-38 tank that was 'co-opted and produced for German Army service until about 1942. The chassis was then modified into the Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hertzer light tank destroyer, which was used by Switzerland until the 1970s! A possible candidate for the first large scale tank on tank battle would be the Battle of Gembloux Gap, from the 11th to the 15 of May 19940, between the French 2nd DLM and 3rd DLMs (Division Légère Mécanique, "Mechanized Light Division") and the German 3rd and 4th Panzer divisions, costing both sides about 100 vehicles.

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