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Subject: Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.
doggtag    9/15/2005 9:20:38 AM
link

Day 1, pg 2

Rafael shows upgraded FV432

Christopher F Foss

Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel has extensive experience in the upgrade of a wide range of armoured fighting vehicles. At the show it is exhibiting an upgraded FV432 series armoured personnel carrier (APC). While the BAE Systems Land Systems Warrior infantry fighting vehicle has replaced the FV432 used by the British Army in the troop carrying role, large numbers of FV432 series remain in service for specialised roles such as ambulance, command post, mortar carrier and support vehicle.

It was expected that the out of service date of the FV432 of the British Army would be about 2014, but this has now been extended to beyond 2020, by which time this vehicle will be more than 50 years old.

The British Army is already expected to put an initial batch of up to 500 FV432s through an automotive upgrade and it is understood that a number of survivability enhancements are being considered.

The FV432 being shown by Rafael has been upgraded in two key areas ? armour and firepower. Survivability has been improved by the installation of the latest-generation insensitive reactive armour package on the front and sides. This provides protection against a variety of anti-tank weapons fitted with a high explosive anti-tank warhead, including the widely deployed RPG-7 rocket propelled grenade launcher.

In addition, the new insensitive reactive armour package provides protection against kinetic energy attack, high-speed artillery and roadside bomb fragments.

For improved firepower, the FV432 is provided with the latest-generation Rafael Remote Controlled Weapon Station 30 (RCWS 30) armed with a stabilised US ATK Gun Systems Company 30mm MK 44 cannon. A 7.62mm MG is mounted co-axial, and installed on the left side is a two-round Spike LR missile launcher to engage tanks and other targets at long range.

Development of the RCWS 30 is complete and it has recently been successfully tested in Europe installed on a number of chassis, including a Polish BMP-1 IFV and a Patria Vehicles Armoured Modular Vehicle (AMV). Later this year, RCWS 30 will be tested in the Czech Republic installed on the Austrian Steyr-Daimler-Puch Pandur II (8x8) and again on the AMV.

RCWS 30 is the latest in a long line of overhead weapon stations developed by the Rafael Armament Development authority for the home and export markets. These are typically armed with 7.62mm or 12.7mm MG, although versions armed with a 25mm cannon have been produced in large numbers for the export market.


 
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Yimmy    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/15/2005 11:09:55 AM
The UK will never use that upgrade on our FV432's..... 30mm cannon, AT missiles and reactive armour? Never happen. Maybe 3rd world nations will buy our surplus vehicles and upgrade a few perhaps.
 
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doggtag    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/15/2005 12:44:44 PM
-"The UK will never use that upgrade on our FV432's..... 30mm cannon, AT missiles and reactive armour? Never happen." And why would they? -"The FV432 being shown by Rafael has been upgraded in two key areas ? armour and firepower." -"The British Army is already expected to put an initial batch of up to 500 FV432s through an automotive upgrade and it is understood that a number of survivability enhancements are being considered." The key word here is "automotive", the one thing the Rafael package doesn't incorporate. Sounds like the UK plan is to keep them around as mechanical mules more than anything (do all the dirty work) until there are enough FRES vehicles to go around. As for the reasoning the UK wouldn't incorporate the weapons and armor upgrade: they have Warriors, which themselves look to be having their armament improved before too long (still the 40mm CTAI, I think...?) And then there's FRES: why spend a fortune upgrading old and busted when you've got a technology-laden new hotness in the works? How many other users out there of the FV432 might buy into it, though? (FRE$) Chances are, they'll be operating their FV432s just as long as the scores of US customers still puttering around in M113s. Besides, does the British Army even use Spike? I thought they were sold on Javelin. Two other news items up on the DSEI site, is Caterpillar's up-engine package for BMP-1s, and the CROWS for light vehicles. These might be of more interest to the FV432 (the Cat/Perkins engine in question can output over 400hp, which could be plenty for the FV432's power requirements, and the CROWS can fit a number of light weapons suitable for APCs and other vehicles, and are fairly cheap, especially considering the cost of the Rafael RCWS30 (safe bet to say that's a lot more expensive than the CROWS.)
 
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Yimmy    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/15/2005 1:59:25 PM
"And why would they?" That is my point. hence why I don't get why Rafael bothered to develope such an upgrade. I don't believe the F432 was widley exported, unlike the M113.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 12:10:42 AM
My copy of Jane's lists no export customers for the FV432.
 
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doggtag    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 3:35:41 AM
Then maybe they just did it for bragging rights, just to prove they could? Question I'd ask: if it (FV432) has no export customers, just where did Rafael get their hands on one to upgrade? I seriously doubt the British Army just gave them one and said, "here you go. See what you can do with it."
 
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Yimmy    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 8:43:17 AM
We have got rid of many of them, especially when Warrior came in service. Look on the internet for surplus vehicles and no doubt you will be able to buy one for 5-10 grand.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 9:01:59 AM
The one thing that comes to mind whenever I read about all of these great "upgrade".....where do you put the troops once you have to deal with ammo and power control systems? You end up dropping a lot of space for soldiers once you add in the powered weapons platforms...and you really cut into it when you switch to cannons from machine guns. Oh, and on a side bar, the FX folks on Band of Brothers used FV432s as the basis of the German armored track vehicles when they did the filming.
 
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flamingknives    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 9:33:44 AM
My company has an FV432. They're not hard to come by.
 
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Fedaykin    Surplus Market   9/16/2005 11:09:04 AM
Rafael is probably looking towards the future surplus market, when the British Army does start to phase out more of the FV432 it could proove to be a cheap option for a number of countries. Considering that Israel has had a great degree of success upgrading old tanks like the Centurian and M60 this is a logical move. As already stated there are plenty available on the surplus market so Rafael would be able to build a prototype. Aside that there are several local UK companies that could provide a more extensive upgrade package there is little need beyond an automotive upgrade for the FV432 in the British Army. Warrior and FRES are going to be he backbone of any future developments with FV432 making up numbers. Of course any upgrade package from an Israeli company would be really out of the question for the British Government. There would be a high level of disquiet from the British public over this kind of purchase (due to the accusation of not supporting British workers and Sympathy for the Palastinian cause). This was the main reason the Spike was dropped in favour of the Javelin for the anti tank requirement. This is not to say that the British MOD doesn't buy Israeli weapons technology it does! Usually the purchases are limited to sub systems to larger projects that tend to get unnoticed in the grand scheme of things. Off the top of my head I know the new Bae Nimrod MRA4 uses a number of Israeli systems.
 
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doggtag    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 11:30:48 AM
-"The one thing that comes to mind whenever I read about all of these great "upgrade".....where do you put the troops once you have to deal with ammo and power control systems? You end up dropping a lot of space for soldiers once you add in the powered weapons platforms...and you really cut into it when you switch to cannons from machine guns. " Therein lies the difference between a turret and RWS. Although generally when we think "turret", we think fully armor-enclosed, manned weapon station, a true turret also extends (turret basket) considerably into the hull. Remote Weapons Stations, on the other hand, are designed with minimal internal protrusion in mind (they don't stick down into the hull as much as a fully armored and equipped 2-man turret.) Certainly the RCWS30 is one of the larger systems on the market, and certainly would have some level of displacing internal systems, but no where near as much as if it (FV432) was fitted with a Fox or Warrior turret. Besides, who in their right mind would suggest we fit them to every vehicle? From most of the pictures I've seen of the FV432 types, they are not incorporating external fuel tanks like we see on the later models of M113 (it reduces internal fire hazard). That's a quick solution to freeing up sufficient internal space for additional ammo and electronics gadgets. But then again, with proven systems on the surplus market like the M113 and its worldwide logistics chains, I personally don't see a thriving market for surplus FV432s in the next several years: even if they're "on the cheap", how expensive will it be to tie into the only parts makers available, in the UK? The M113, and a number of other AFVs, have a much larger worldwide parts support network, and therefore end up being considerably cheaper in the long run, as repair parts don't have to come special order from single source suppliers. Me personally? I'd rather see Rafael fit their RCWS30 on a CVR(T) chassis: those are in widespread service (well, at least when compared to the FV432.) I also think that Rafael is more trying to market Spike than anything.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 12:07:51 PM
Yeah, but the ammo storage become a big issue. The case for 25 rounds of 25mm in a BFV takes up more space than 100 round sof .50 caliber. The FV432 is an armored personnel carrier. Doesn't need an auto cannon. It needs a rifle caliber or heavy machine gun to support the DISMOUNTED troops. BEcaus ethat is where the troops should fight...dismounted.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 12:20:30 PM
"was fitted with a Fox or Warrior turret." If I recall correctly, they are one and the same. Canada surprisingly enough has recently stuck Scorpion turrets on their LAV's, and they must be 40 years old by design now.
 
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Eagle601    RE:Rafael does it again: first M113s, now FV432s.   9/16/2005 12:49:17 PM
Australia had Scorpion turrents on M113s I believe untill replaced by Leo 1s.
 
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