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Subject: What about the Merkava?
sabotup    6/13/2005 4:26:44 AM
I've been looking here for a while and have noticed that the Western MBT's, and the newer Russian/Chinese tanks get alot of press. What about the Merkava? I know it's cross country performance is less than the M1/Leopard series. How about it's protection/fcs, how does it stack up to the best of the west?
 
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svaba    RE:What about the Merkava?   6/13/2005 9:26:29 AM
Well as I know Merkava is one of the most well protected tanks on the world but don't know much details about it. And that rear emergency exit for the crew is quite cool.
 
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Biggles201    RE:What about the Merkava?   6/13/2005 10:05:19 AM
The Merkeva was designed as an ideal defensive tank. The engine is located in front which is unique and gives vastly greater protection to the crew compartment. A drawback of the early Merkeva's was that it was quite slow in comparison to the Leopard or Abrams. The Merkeva 4 remedies this short comming. It has exceptionally good cross-country performance. The tank has many unique features, not least is the ability to embark and disembark a half-section of infantry to the rear or the vehicle or to use this space to rapidly replenish the vehicle with ammo.
 
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Bluewings    RE:What about the Merkava?   6/14/2005 1:22:15 AM
Merkava 's tracks are a piece of robust Art :-) Try the Abrams on the Golan :-( ooops ... Cheers .
 
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Shack80    RE:What about the Merkava?   6/14/2005 9:39:45 AM
It has always struck me that the Merk was the perfect Tank for the needs of Isreal. Really all this wich is best is mostly BS. There is no best, there are many best depending on the needs and resources of the country. I piece of military hardware really needs to be considered within the philosphy and stance of the power that will use them. A abrams with its slant towards mobility would not be as good a fit for Isreal. I don't think the merkava would be the answer for the US military either, though a few might be nice to use in Iraq right now for urban combat.
 
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Shirrush    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/12/2005 3:37:25 PM
There is a considerable heap of manure on the Web about the Merkava's alleged mobility issues. Most other modern MBT had much higher power/weight ratio, while all the Merkava MkI/II had to move it's hefty 63 metric tons around was a "puny" 900 hp engine. Yet, no Merkava tanker ever complained about his ride not doing was it was supposed to do according to it's combat doctrine. The 1990's Mk III has a much-improved suspension AND a stronger engine, which makes it the fastest-running tank in the area, even if our Egyptian and Saudi neighbors' M1A1 and M1A2's are included. Cross-country speed is what you should look at, and the Merk 3 has plenty of it, plus an ability to fire on-the-move at moving targets, which is what modern MBT's do... One thing that is often overlooked with tanks is their fightability. The Merks are quite roomy on the inside, have some sort of climate control for the crew, (no Israeli cav recruit is selected according to his baking temperature in the Thar desert...) and a large ammo and fuel supply that allows them the best staying power around. The Merk is a tanker's tank, and even the notoriously bitchy Israeli recruits have never been heard complaining about their Merks, prefering instead to tell at great length how lucky they are not to be serving in one or another of these M-60 refurbs we have so many of. As to the Mk IV, there isn't much about it that isn't classified, but is has the same MTU engine as most of it's western counterparts, an a power-to-weight ratio to match the top crowd. Lately, some teething problem with these GDLS-manufactured German engines have prevented a Mk IV battalion from being sent into Gaza, and Mk II's got there instead. Mk II are IMO slightly better for FIBUA, since their 105 mm means that they still can take a considerable number of HEAT and flechette candies, even if they need to carry an infantry squad or a medevac team in their rear hold.
 
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chowhound    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/12/2005 6:12:32 PM
Why would Israel go through General Dynamics to obtain the German MTU engine? Seems like buying direct from the source would be obvious.
 
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aceofw    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/12/2005 7:12:39 PM
But when buying through GD we can use the US military aid money ;)
 
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Shirrush    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/13/2005 8:23:26 AM
Well, ace, I sincerely worries me to see that you are interested in armor. Remember, after you complete your mandatory 36 months, you'll be a reservist for about as long as you can still get it up, and you know what the only way out of Shiryion is... While it is true that Israel prefers to buy the Merk engines from GDLS, since they can be funded from aid $$$$ through the FMF procedure, this is not the only reason, but only the first, and foremost, of three. The other one is that GDLS has obtained the license from MTU not only to fill Israeli orders, but they also plan to use these powerplants anyway for their new "Gator" for the USMC, the EFV. link There will be therefore, the price advantage that goes with a potentially large production run, since the EFV is only starting while the Leo 2 series is coming to the end of it's manufacturing history. Even so, the thing costs half a million bucks, and has had teething problems on the Merk-4's which will be solved in a timely manner, very surely to the great benefit of the Americans, even before it's actual fielding inside the said Gators. The third reason is that the present German government is opposed to selling weapons to a country that will use them in war, and for this reason has turned down, apparently, all Israeli attempts to purchase more HDW submarines, or KMW's Dingo 2 all-protected vehicle. Refusing to sell us weapons at a time when we most need them is objectionnable, but to their credit the Germans also stubbornly refuse to provide the Arabs with any hardware they could use to genocide more Jews. This pacifistic policy is bound to change, AFAIK, next fall when the Social Democrats lose the elections on the grounds of poor economic performance (such as turning down large export deals, thus losing many German's jobs, for ideological reasons...)and the CDU forms the next goverment.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/15/2005 5:32:12 PM
Q:"The third reason is that the present German government is opposed to selling weapons to a country that will use them in war, and for this reason has turned down, apparently, all Israeli attempts to purchase more HDW submarines, or KMW's Dingo 2 all-protected vehicle." Under German Law, weapons can only be exported to NATO-members or states which are located in "non-tension areas" (the Swiss, Australia etc.). Previous sales to Israel tended to bend the law, as will future ones. Another problems is that there have been some cases of arms exports transforming into arms donation, e.g. the latest subs "sold" to Israel.
 
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BrittleSteel    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/21/2005 11:04:45 AM
Shirrush i like what you say an you say it well except fro one minor error. The merk 3 has been snet into Gaza and will be there aking the heat during the pull out. I know this cause i was just there in a tank. As far at reputation the brigade with the mk 2 has not done very well in gaza but it is beleive that is entirely due to the crew. Israeli Tankers' Motto: "That man in the tank brings victory!"
 
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Shirrush    RE: BrittleSteel   7/28/2005 3:47:06 PM
My apologies for this late response, but the boards have gone so quiet lately that I haven't felt a need to look them up more often than about once a week. BrittleSteel, I want you to know that we all stand behind you (after all, we can: your diesel exhausts from the side! :>), and wish you a safe and proud return home after you are done ridding our collective neckvein of the inflated tick of the Gaza settlements, and if you get to make good use of your main gun or your maqbil on a few Hama"s terrorists as well, so much the better... When there was all that talk about sending the IDF into Beth 'Hannun and Beth Lahyia two weeks ago after that poor girl in Netiv Ha'Assara got murdered, the TV showed tanks from a prestigious Cav brigade assembling somewhere south of Ashkelon in the lovely stabilized dune terrain there with all these Aussie Blue Wattle shrubs we are so grateful to for the shade (and the concealment). These were definitely the old Merk 2's, some of them fitted with the sloping turretside armor packs they got in S. Lebanon. So I guess you guys are the ones inside with the 3-Baz's doing the actual work on behalf of all of us, not the ones on the outside waiting for a good bloody reason to go kick ass.
 
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Shirrush    RE: BrittleSteel   7/28/2005 3:47:28 PM
My apologies for this late response, but the boards have gone so quiet lately that I haven't felt a need to look them up more often than about once a week. BrittleSteel, I want you to know that we all stand behind you (after all, we can: your diesel exhausts from the side! :>), and wish you a safe and proud return home after you are done ridding our collective neckvein of the inflated tick of the Gaza settlements, and if you get to make good use of your main gun or your maqbil on a few Hama"s terrorists as well, so much the better... When there was all that talk about sending the IDF into Beth 'Hannun and Beth Lahyia two weeks ago after that poor girl in Netiv Ha'Assara got murdered, the TV showed tanks from a prestigious Cav brigade assembling somewhere south of Ashkelon in the lovely stabilized dune terrain there with all these Aussie Blue Wattle shrubs we are so grateful to for the shade (and the concealment). These were definitely the old Merk 2's, some of them fitted with the sloping turretside armor packs they got in S. Lebanon. So I guess you guys are the ones inside with the 3-Baz's doing the actual work on behalf of all of us, not the ones on the outside waiting for a good bloody reason to go kick ass.
 
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Shirrush    RE: BrittleSteel   7/28/2005 3:47:59 PM
My apologies for this late response, but the boards have gone so quiet lately that I haven't felt a need to look them up more often than about once a week. BrittleSteel, I want you to know that we all stand behind you (after all, we can: your diesel exhausts from the side! :>), and wish you a safe and proud return home after you are done ridding our collective neckvein of the inflated tick of the Gaza settlements, and if you get to make good use of your main gun or your maqbil on a few Hama"s terrorists as well, so much the better... When there was all that talk about sending the IDF into Beth 'Hannun and Beth Lahyia two weeks ago after that poor girl in Netiv Ha'Assara got murdered, the TV showed tanks from a prestigious Cav brigade assembling somewhere south of Ashkelon in the lovely stabilized dune terrain there with all these Aussie Blue Wattle shrubs we are so grateful to for the shade (and the concealment). These were definitely the old Merk 2's, some of them fitted with the sloping turretside armor packs they got in S. Lebanon. So I guess you guys are the ones inside with the 3-Baz's doing the actual work on behalf of all of us, not the ones on the outside waiting for a good bloody reason to go kick ass.
 
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ambush    RE:What about the Merkava?   7/30/2005 6:41:01 PM
Does not the Merkava IV turrent design leave it with a nasty shell trap along the turrent ring?
 
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